
Dr. Chikako Ozawa-de Silva explores critical issues surrounding depression, suicide, and the search for life’s meaning in episode 22 of the Ikigai Podcast.
Chikako is an associate professor of anthropology in the Department of Anthropology at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia; her research focuses on cross-cultural understandings of well-being, especially mental well-being and contemplative practice.
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Ikigai and Ikiru imi
Ikiru imi is another Japanese term similar to ikigai; in her research, Chikako found out that suicide website visitors often use this term.
Nick: A word that you introduced or you talk about in your article is similar to the word ikigai, which my audience would be very familiar with. But there's another word related to ikigai, which is ikiru imi.
So would you like to explain what ikiru imi is and how it's different from Ikigai?
Chikako: Ikiru imi literally translates as meaning in life in English; it's commonly known and used. In fact, when I was reading suicide websites for seven years, suicide website visitors often use the term ikiru imi or imi.
What's the meaning of life? What's the point of living? Ikiru imi as a word has the connotation of being the grand question addressing what might be the most important in life in a somewhat abstract and lofty manner.
So it sometimes evokes philosophical, ideological, and ontological questions for many. So many college students would say ikiru imi, that sounds too lofty, I might not have that one. But I can tell you about my ikigai.
So that was probably how these college students often distinguish between ikiru imi as something lofty, as opposed to ikigai as something concrete, something maybe more of a small scale thing and relation oriented.
Nick: And just on ikigai, how would you define it?
Chikako: I actually read scholars in Japan who did extensive studies on ikigai, and how they defined ikigai as worth of living. I think it's a really good word, because it means more than just a kind of goal in life or something.What is Mental Languishing?
Chikako differentiates mental illness and mental languishing, stating that people languishing and lacking social support have a higher risk of suicide.
Nick: This is something you wrote, and it jumped out at me in your article: mental languishing. So how would you define mental languishing? And how is it different from mental illness?
Chikako: Mental illness is that medical category, and mental languishing is understood as a deficit in emotional, social, and psychological well-being. So if you're not familiar with emotional, social, and psychological well-being:
Emotional well-being, meaning you're feeling happy; a social well-being is that you feel you're accepted by other people, by your community, and society – and society makes sense to you; a psychological well-being is something that you have a positive self worth about yourself -- so mental languishing is something that is like, deficit of these three.
Actually, it is considered more detrimental and more predictive of future suicide than mental illness.
So what it means is that those who are suffering from depression, but have meaning in life, good relationships, and so on, may have lower risk for suicide than those who don't suffer from mental illness but who are languishing and lack of these other factors such as social support and loneliness.
Nick: Yeah, this really made sense to me. It was almost like an epiphany, where we could be mentally sound or mentally stable.
But if we have no social connection, if we have loneliness, and we have this sense that we don't have purpose or meaning to our life, it would make our life definitely hard to continue living. So we could be mentally fine and capable.
But if we are just languishing as you define it in these three areas, people would question, why am I living? I'm not happy. I have no sense of purpose. I don't have any strong meaningful relationships.
So I think this research really provides important answers to what makes our life worth living.
Three Types of Mental Pain
In her research regarding suicide website visitors, Chikako noticed three distinctive types of mental pain and existential angst expressed by these website visitors. explains the three points as severe loneliness, absence of meaning in life, and the feeling of not being needed by anyone.
Nick: So through your research, you came to realise three distinctive types of mental pain and existential angst expressed by these website visitors. So would you like to touch on those three points?
Chikako: There are quite a few, right? I was following these suicide websites, and I was reading posted narratives, comments by people who are regular suicide website visitors. But eventually, I came to realise, there seems like three distinctive forms of mental pain:
One is the severe loneliness. It's like an acute sense of loneliness. The second is the kind of absence of meaning in life -- what's the point of keeping on living, that sense. And a third form of mental pain that I kept noticing was a feeling of not being needed by anyone.
So like I don't matter, I don't mean anything, I am replaceable, I'm not needed, I'm not being needed by anyone.
So I remember that one person posting, like if somebody said, she or he needs me, that would be enough. That would be enough for me to keep on living. But the person just didn't feel that was there.
Nick: Well, it certainly highlights what's important to us. It's profound how simple it could be to satisfy that just to say, I need you to someone.Finding Ikigai Through Meaningful Relationships
For Chikako, having meaningful relationships is a way of attaining ikigai. When people have meaningful connections, they have something they can hold on to even in times of difficulties.
Nick: I think, from your research, clearly, you know, when we're young, we want to feel needed. Then maybe when we do have the structure of family -- we are needed, so we don't think about it.
I'm sure when my son who's 17, maybe in a few years when he leaves the house, he doesn't need me, maybe other than for money, I will think that I'm not needed by him as much as I once was. I might struggle with that.
So could the short answer to finding one ikigai with meaningful relationships? If that's one takeaway?
Chikako: It is certainly one takeaway, I would say, I think if you want to think about what's most important in life again, if you're already embedded in a very good relationship, you might even say, why focus on ikigai, it's okay to have or not.
But certainly it seems almost right. Even people who were languishing. If people are languishing, people really latch on to ikigai. But it becomes a little bit over the abstract concepts.
Such as, that may be something lofty but I don't have it yet. But once I have it, oh, all the meanings would be restored in my life, and they wouldn't be okay. But maybe what you need is actually having a good relationship.
It's almost like misplacing focus that you think you should have something else to be happy? But maybe what is more important, is having this kind of sound relationship, that may be the foundation for happiness for many people.
Because once you become very goal oriented all the time, it could be endless, right? Like more and more.
The Definition of Ikizurasa
Japan is filled with fascinating terms that they use in their daily conversations. One of those is the term ikizurasa. What is ikizurasa? Chikako discusses the meaning of ikizurasa (hard to live), a term people would hear often when they visit Japan.
Nick: Yeah, very wise. So another word that's interesting. I had heard of the word, ikizurai. But a word you introduced is ikizurasa. What does that mean? Because that was mentioned in your interviews.
Chikako: In English, probably the difficulty of living or finding it hard to live. I think this would capture what ikizurasa is. I think actually it is a term you hear often if you visit Japan.
Ikizurasa, it's tough to live. I think two years ago I was in Hiroshima, right after a conference in the bookstore. It's just a small bookstore. There was an entire section on ikizurasa.
Nick: Oh, really?
Chikako: Yeah. Dozens of books on ikizurasa. I couldn't help but take a picture. Back in the 90s, Japan went through the era of healing -- everything was healing. So that was when I was still living in Japan, Yoshinojida.
A few decades later, Japan moved from the healing society to ikizurasa, the difficulty of living in society. So it's almost like this is something I need to think more about.
In the 90s, what I often saw in the popular magazines was iyashi. This is so healing. So people were aware of the need for healing. Now it's almost like it advanced to the next level -- it's ikizurasa.
Nick: That's really interesting. You mentioned iyashi, because that's something I learned from Shintaro Kono, a professor who's an expert in leisure, and he interviewed college students. One of their most valued experiences was iyashi.
So he mentioned there was tanoshi, gambari, shigeki, and iyashi. This idea of iyashi was comfort among your friends; that you could be comfortable with your friends. So it's interesting how it has this other perspective of healing that you've just mentioned.
So I always find it fascinating. I learned so much from these podcast interviews.For the full podcast conversation, go to: Dr. Chikako Ozawa-de Silva on a Lack of Ikigai: Loneliness and Relational Meaning