Gordon Mathews on Life, Death, and Deeper Meaning

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If You Only Live Once, Why Do You Live as You Do?

Gordon published a book titled After Death Today in the United States, Japan, and China. Fascinated with the idea that all things in life are temporary, he explores the theme of a larger meaning by examining the senses of life and death.

Exploring the theme of life after death

Nick: On this episode, we discuss the subject of life after death, and your latest book. And perhaps I think you mentioned this might be your last book, Life After Death Today in the United States, Japan and China. And this again blew my mind.

And in the book to use your words, you return to this question of a larger meaning of looking at senses of life and death. So I guess my first question to you is, why did you want to explore this theme?

Gordon: Well, in my book on ikigai, people would talk about living for their work, or their family, or their dream. They had these things that really did motivate them in life. But underlying that, all these things vanish. I mean, your work, but at some point, you'll retire now. If you're very lucky, if you're a medical researcher, you keep working till you're 97 and then drop dead in your lab.

Or if you're a physician, the same thing might happen. Family is the same thing, you might live for your children, but your children will eventually leave to live their own lives. Marriage, even if you have a happy marriage, people die. So all of this comes to an end.

And so in that book on ikigai, a question I would ask people is, what do you think happens to you after you die? And now in this book, what may be my last book, I'm not sure. I go back to that question of life after death today and what it means.

Now, my first book was on the United States and Japan. This is the United States, Japan, and China. And I've written this along with a couple of my graduate students, Yang Yang and Miu Ying Kwong, who did the China part of this.

But it is a comparison of senses of life after death in these three different societies and what people think happens to them after they die? Many people think nothing happens, but that's part of the whole equation.

Nick: We're going to explore what people think about life after death. And I was wondering, you chose those three ethnographies, simply because you lived in each country?

Gordon: Yeah, well, and that's the simplest reason, I've lived in each country. The United States and Japan are fairly easy for me to do. China too, though, is a place I've written some books about. My Chinese isn't as good as my Japanese, so I wanted to have students do the Chinese part.

But it was quite natural to do it. And by chance these happen to be the world's three biggest economies. And that matters, I suppose, because one question about life after death is, ‘If you only live once, why do you live as you do?’ And that's a big question. People are working really hard in these three societies making the economy grow, but if you're gonna die, and then it's all over. Why? So this question does resonate.

Nick: It certainly does if you frame it like that.

Differences in Belief in Life After Death

In the interviews conducted for his book, Gordon discovered that people from the US, Japan, and China hold diverse beliefs concerning life after death. Among these three, it became evident that Japanese individuals were more receptive to this concept.

How people accept the idea of life after death

Nick: I'll share some of the questions you asked your interviewees. And these could be questions people could reflect on later:

• If you died right now, what do you think would happen to you?
• What do you think happens to you after you die? And how certain are you of this?
• How often do you think about what might happen to you after you die?
• If you believe that there's no life after death, what do you think will be left of your existence after you die?
• What, if anything, do you think may last beyond your time on Earth?

So pretty deep and profound questions, people might need time to reflect on this. So when you prepared your interviews, did you give people like a heads up and say, ‘Look, we're going to be having these deep and meaningful discussions.’ Did you give them time to consider these things? Or did you just talk about it on the spot?

Gordon: I didn't, I just talk about it on the spot, and people do want to talk about this. Now, the three societies I looked at are quite different. China is most interesting in the sense of so many people are afraid of death. And so when my student, Yang Yang, would ask somebody, could we interview you but life after death? ‘No, God, no! Think about a more positive topic.’

Japan was the opposite. Everybody wanted to talk about this. A couple of times, I had the experience of interviewing one person, like in a bar, for example, and then a total stranger would walk up and say, ‘Wow, this is really interesting. Can you talk to me, too?’

All kinds of people would talk about this. I've got to tell the story here; this makes your sequence of of questions, probably screws it up, but it's such a good story. I remember being at a bar in Sapporo, Japan, and I was talking to somebody and then it must have been after midnight, a really drunken young man came up to me and said, ‘You see that woman over there? She's my mistress. But I can't take her home. I can't take her home and go to bed with her.’ And I said, ‘Well, why? Are you afraid of your wife?’

‘Oh, no, my wife lives in a different city, I'm afraid of my grandfather.’ And then he pulled out a watch and said, ‘My grandfather lives in this watch. And he would see everything I'm doing, and I just can't do it.’

And life after death truly has a big effect and how this guy is living his life. He was a graduate student in science, but it didn't matter. This was something that was pretty important in how he lived. And this is true for an awful lot of people I talked to in all three societies, that they do have this notion.

Now one key element of the larger picture here is that it used to be back 300 years ago, most people knew what other people in their society believed about life after death, you had these collective faiths. And in the US, it might have been belief in the Christian God or in God. In Japan, probably ancestor veneration, may be coupled with Buddhism. And they're different in some sense, but some combination of those two,

In China, too, probably reincarnation, maybe ghosts, but people had a common belief. Today, it's not common anymore. And you might not know what your own neighbors or friends even think happens to them after they die. So you may think about it, but it's a much more private matter. And it makes it very interesting to go into.

People do want to talk about it very often because they have these ideas, but it's not really socially acceptable to go into this a whole lot. People normally don't talk about it, yet, people do want to talk about it.

Putting Emotions Before Logic

A lot of people in Japan are open to the idea of life after death. Gordon believes that this is because, for them, it goes beyond mere belief; it is a hopeful desire to communicate with their deceased loved ones.

Yearning for a departed loved one

Nick: Living in Japan taught me how much Japan is a culture of customs. And it has generally accepted the two religions: Shintoism and Buddhism. Yet, I never considered Japanese as religious people. I think the only religious person I've ever met in Japan was a Christian.

Yet, every time we returned to Japan, to my wife's family home, we go and visit her mother's grave, ohakamairi, we clean and pay our respects, we clean it and lay flowers.

She actually died before I ever met her. So I never met my wife's mother. So in a way, it's perhaps the only way I can connect to her. Yet, I don't really feel anything when I go and do this. And I guess my real intention is to support my wife and be a good husband. And I'm pretty sure my wife doesn't really sense her mother by doing this either.

I think we both like to experience some connection. And my wife's definitely not a Buddhist. But, again, when we go back to Japan, we will definitely do this. And so it made me realize it's this, I guess you call it this Buddhist religious practice without belief. And that seems to be quite common in Japan.

Gordon: It is. But I'd want to go a little bit of a slightly different angle here. For American Christians, you mentioned the only believers you knew were the Christians in Japan. For Christians, it's a matter of belief. Whereas in Japan, it's much more a matter of practice. Particularly among women in the household, because they're the ones who take care of the family altar.

The woman might be taking care of her husband's dead parents, particularly father, but still she is there giving rice every day and burning incense every day, and talking to the departed ancestors. And if you talk to the departed ancestors on a regular basis, yeah, you begin to feel something's there.

Now, like you, I never met anybody who said, ‘I am absolutely 100% convinced that my ancestors were there.’ But few people would say zero, many would say, ‘Well, every day I talk to grandpa, because my son works in construction, and I want to make sure he's okay. And grandpa may be able to help him out.’ And so it's that kind of sense.

Japan is really interesting, because ancestor veneration, ancestor worship as it used to be called, but I think veneration is a better term. It used to be directly connected to the household, and the male lineage, and so on. Now, it's much more personal. It's like you've lost somebody in your life that you loved, and you talk to them at the altar or at the grave, as you've mentioned. And these conversations are not a matter of belief, but of hope.

One of the moving interviews I had was with a woman who had lost her husband when he was in his 30s. And now she was in her 50s. But she was talking to him every day at the family altar and also at the grave when she visited it. And I asked her, ‘Look, do you really think you can communicate with him?’

And she said, ‘Look, I work in computers. I'm a rationalist. I'm a scientist. So of course I wouldn’t, but I know I will. Despite the logic that tells me no, I know that I'm going to talk to him again. I'm certain I will and I'm certain that I can talk to him at the altar.’

So hope is against logic and hope tends to win out very often. Emotion wins out which I find really moving.

What Do You Believe In?

The belief in life after death varies among individuals, and several factors influence this perspective, such as religion and one's way of life. Gordon suggests that many people today no longer feel the necessity of an afterlife due to the significant improvements in the quality of life brought about by technology. As a result, these advancements provide people with a sense of fulfillment in the present.

Is there life after death?

Nick: I remember, I think it's like a q&a TV program here in Australia discussing what’s God. And there were Christians and atheists.

And then there was this guy with tattoos all over his neck and face, and he offered probably one of the best answers, like, ‘I just understand God as the universe — its energy and we're all connected and perhaps after we die, we might become part of this growing universe.’ And he said it in such a way that wasn't aggressive or was open to possibility, interpretation, while everyone else was quite assertive in their beliefs.

So yeah, it's interesting how some people, I guess, break these molds and contemplate and have this individual idea of what it could be. And I started to begin to think, maybe it is what you just believe at the time of death, which I know you touched on.

If you believe you'll go to heaven, maybe you will go to heaven. If you believe, ‘Oh, I've done some horrible things, I guess I'm gonna go to hell.’ You might end up there. Or if you think you've just become part of the universe that happens, or if you think that's it lights out, there's nothing after this, that may happen.

Gordon: Absolutely, Nick. And that is an interesting new variation of belief that, hey, maybe you go wherever you think you're gonna go. Now, Japanese have long felt this probably more than Americans or Chinese, because in China, it's been atheism that is true for everyone.

In the US has been the Christian God that may or may not be true. In Japan, ancestor, veneration has always been more individual. And so you go with your own father, mother, grandfather, grandmother, husband, wife, child, you go with them. And so what always has been individuated in that sense.

But nonetheless, there's a larger issue here that I touch upon in the closing pages of the book that I think is really interesting. Looking at the evolution of human beings as a whole, we've gone from collective belief and religion. And I think it's fair to say that 500 years ago, almost everybody believed in a life after death on the basis of the religion they were in to a world where most people now in the developed world don't particularly believe.

Now, this gets confusing, because obviously, America does have a lot of people who believe in the Christian God, but even so, the number of believers has been shrinking very drastically, as of late. Increasingly, people don't think there is anything. And why is that? Well, we've moved from belief to non-belief, largely because human life is pretty good.

One American woman said something really wise to me. She said, ‘Look, I'm now in my 70s. And I don't feel a need for life after death, because my life has been pretty good.’

And she's right, she suffered some emotional pain. But I mean, after all, compared to 500 years ago, you get a toothache now, you go to the dentist; you have surgery, and you're properly anesthetized; physically, life is awfully comfortable.

Now, the Buddhists are right, suffering remains in an emotional sense. But physically, it's comfortable. And her point of view is I've had a good life, so when I'm dying, I'm not going to say please give me more, I'm going to say thank you. That's a pretty wise way to look at it.

What is the Purpose of Our Existence?

The question of our existence in this world remains a profound mystery. One thing, however, is certain – we are fortunate to have been granted this life to live. Thus, it becomes essential not to squander a single minute of it and instead, appreciate the things we have right now.

In his book, Gordon delves into the various possibilities that might occur after people die. Through the interviews conducted for his book, he comes to the remarkable conclusion that having had the opportunity to live in the first place is truly miraculous.

The enigmas of existence

Nick: It's interesting, all these ideas, have we lost this wisdom? Or is there an ability for some people to connect to God, or the universe in a way that other people can't? But it made me think about how we are very much disconnected anyway to our environment.

And you touch on how people are so glued to their phones, they're missing the rainbows, or the birds flutter by. I think you actually quoted, it was wonderful to see you quote, Kamiya Mieko again, in your book. And there were so many interesting quotes. So I'd like to contrast a few.

This is a quote from a non-believing retired salary man in his 70s, and he shared the following:

‘After I die, where does the self that is thinking and worrying go to? What happens when a person never wakes up? That's why it's so frightening. Where on earth do I go? I want to believe in something after death, but I just can't.

And then I'll contrast that with the coffee shop owner in his 50s:

‘If you were born, you would die. So the question instead is how well can you live in a fun and creative way? I don't think that life after death matters very much at all. What's important is how you live now. For people who are afraid of death, I'd say everyone dies. So just accept it and live well in the meantime.’

Gordon: Easier said than done.

Nick: So I'm wanting to be like the coffee shop owner, but I'm really probably more like the salaryman thinking, I don't want to die, it's gonna be scary. What happens after I die?

Gordon: Yeah, well, at the end of the book, I don't normally like to read from my own book, but I just was looking at this. And I have this line that, ‘We who write this book are looking forward to dying, and just possibly seeing what happens, what it all truly might mean. Meanwhile, in an echo of a number of our interviewees, we can only say that it's miraculous to have had the chance to be alive.’

Yeah, that's true. I mean, we're alive. Why have we been given this gift of life? Now, talking to you today, Nick, I'm being a little more philosophical than the book is. Because it primarily deals with a lot of these different accounts. But there is a really interesting question of, ‘Why do we exist?’

I talked to an American woman who said, ‘Look, the universe has to be made of love by the very fact we exist.’ Whereas other people would say, ‘No, no, no, it's just random matter. That's all it is.’ And and how do you want to interpret this? Why is there something rather than nothing? Who could say?

And then that's related to this whole other question: Does love conquer all? Or does death conquer all? And so when the Japanese woman, the computer programmer said, I will see my husband, she's saying that love can conquer death. But can it or is that just a human illusion? We don’t know.

For the full podcast conversation, go to: Unveiling a Larger Meaning of Life and Death with Prof. Gordon Mathews