Professor Hiroshi Nishigori explores how individuals can discover deeper meaning and fulfillment in their professional lives in episode 86 of the Ikigai Podcast.
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Writing a Paper That Examines Yarigai
Hiroshi was inspired by how dedicated Japanese doctors are to their work and how they find it especially meaningful, a concept known as yarigai. This interest led him to decide to write a research paper on yarigai.
A feeling of yarigai in the workplace
Nick: As I mentioned to you, for quite a time, and I've been wanting to explore yarigai, and I was hoping one day someone would write a paper on it. And you did, so thank you. How did this paper, ‘Exploring Yarigai: The meaning of working as a physician in teaching medical professionalism’, how did that come about?
Hiroshi: Actually, the idea came very, very long time ago, when I was a PhD student under Nagoya University Graduate School of Medicine, and visited the UK as a research fellow, and also a master's student in medical education.
I watched how our doctors work there. And I found many differences between Japanese ones and British ones. And to simply say that the Japanese are working much harder—this is my perspective, it might be wrong—for longer hours. At that time in 2005, we’re talking about the healthcare resources, the number of doctors per population are very similar between the two countries, as well as as are the health care costs are very similar between the two countries.
Whereas the UK try to increase the number of medical school enrollments. The UK made it more than twice or double the number of medical school enrollments compared to 10 years or 20 years ago. I mean, compared to 1980s and 1990s.
So I had a question why these two countries have different perspectives and different reductions. Then I came back to Japan after two years of staying in the UK, and again found the Japanese doctors’ work ethic, workstyle, are too long hours.
I don't mean that this is good or this is bad, any positive or negative, just different. But I like to know why some Japanese doctors like to work very hard, like to work for long hours. Then I noticed the concept of yarigai. There must be some yarigai to work for patients.
There are salary issues, there are social pressures issues, not only inside medicine, but outside of medicine field as well. But I like to explore the concept of yarigai of doctors since that time. So it's a long time ago. And because I didn't have any methodology to do that, I did a PhD under master’s, as you introduced, the health care professions education program.
And then I got a supervisor, and I talked about my idea. They agreed that this is a fascinating idea, and asked me to explore more and deeper. Then I did interviews and write the paper. It took more than 10 years to finish my work, because of lots of barriers, mainly my workload. Again, I’m a medical educational researcher, but quite busy in internal and external work hours inside and outside of my institution.
Defining Yarigai (Something Worthwhile Doing)
In his paper, Hiroshi defined yarigai as the fulfillment and satisfaction that comes from doing meaningful work that is intrinsically motivating. When people find yarigai, work becomes more than just earning money; it becomes a source of personal growth and a way to contribute to something greater.
Work becomes a source of fulfillment
Nick: We probably should briefly touch on the meaning of yarigai. I think in English, it's often translated to mean rewarding. How would you define yarigai?
Hiroshi: In my paper, I define yarigai as a fulfillment, sense of fulfillment, satisfaction on intrinsic motivation derived from engaging in meaningful work. So it definitely relates to work. When an individual finds yarigai, work becomes more than just a meaning of living, it becomes a source of fulfillment, personal growth, a way to contribute to something other than themselves. That's what I wrote.
Nick: So very similar to ikigai. We'll probably touch on the difference a little bit later. But yeah, as I mentioned to you, I remember hearing yarigai, or the expression yarigai ga aru, ‘that's worth doing’, or ‘that's meaningful’, quite often in conversation. So it's a far more common expression than ikigai, in Japan.
The Burnout Epidemic
Nick and Hiroshi discuss how individuals can still experience burnout, even when engaging in work they genuinely love.
Burnout becoming a social problem
Nick: Going back to your paper, your paper reconsiders and explores the question of ‘why do doctors work for the patient?’ You know that many doctors suffer from burnout. And you indicate that there is a shift from the notion of doctors working tirelessly for the sake of their patients to them considering their own well-being. So would you like to expand on this?
Hiroshi: Well, yes. The question ‘why do doctors work for patients?’ is a question that for a long time I would like to explore more. And the concept of yarigai is the kind of conceptual framework or theoretical framework to explore it.
The doctors’ burnout becoming a social problem is more like in Western context, I think. We experience many doctors burning out in Japan as well. But, for example, in the US, they call it an epidemic, which means that many doctors are experiencing burnout, which I think is slightly a different condition from Japan.
But because this paper is written in English language, and the main audience are the Western people, that's why I called it the issues of burning out of doctors. That's one thing. And also the concept of well-being is recently gaining traction from doctors and healthcare professionals as well. I don't know very much about well-being, but it's related to happiness and also the ikigai that you explored, Nick.
Nick: Yes, And well-being is becoming more recognized as something to consider and promote in the workplace—in all industries now. So I think in part, ikigai has become popular because of that reason. I do get contacted by corporates asking for well-being or ikigai workshops. But yourself, Hiroshi, have you ever experienced burnout with all the things you do?
Hiroshi: To be honest, yes. I tend to work harder. I understand that I'm one of the workaholic persons, and sometimes do work beyond my working limit.
Nick: Is it hard for you to detach from work? If you go home, do you still have an office? Or do you still check your email? Do you have a laptop that you turn on when you go back home?
Hiroshi: Yes. Because I'm mainly working as a researcher, and a researcher’s life is more on 24 hours or seven days a week. So yes, I do a lot. And also I have many deadlines, so it's difficult to have a rest without thinking about anything.
Nick: Yes, same here. I find it very hard to detach from work, because I can always look at my phone for emails, or I'll be checking website visits, or I have to find another podcast guests. And I have all these ideas. So it never really ends, but I do enjoy the work that I do.
But sometimes I think that I'm close to burnout, I need to step back and take a break. I guess it's one of the problems of doing work you enjoy, you can burn out, especially if it's meaningful work.
Distinguishing Yarigai from Ikigai
While writing his paper, Hiroshi explored yarigai and ikigai. Both share the suffix 'gai' (value or worth), but they differ in how they apply to life. To Hiroshi, ikigai is more philosophical, while yarigai relates to meaningful work and practicality.
Yarigai is a more commonly used word among Japanese people
Nick: I think, this is a good time for us to maybe explain the difference between yarigai and ikigai a bit more detail. So yeah, what is the difference between yarigai and ikigai?
Hiroshi: Actually, by writing this paper I studied both ikigai and yarigai. I don't think I'm an expert on it yet. But in my understanding, ikigai is more focused on ‘being’ whereas yarigai is definitely related to work, so more focusing on doing, which I also described in my paper.
Also Nick, as you mentioned, ikigai is maybe more philosophical. We Japanese people don't say much about ikigai as a common word, whereas yarigai is more practical, a more common word among Japanese people. That's my understanding.
Nick: Well, I think that obviously, it makes sense if we look at the difference in verb: yaru means ‘to do’ essentially, and ikiru, obviously, is ‘to live.’ So yes, I guess, if we're talking about living and life, that's far more philosophical.
And yaru is this practical aspect of our lives; doing things and doing things that are worthwhile or rewarding or fulfilling. And as I mentioned earlier, I used to hear yarigai all the time in Japan. And I thought that's just a normal common expression. And I've only had a handful of conversations where ikigai was mentioned.
So it's interesting that ikigai became so popular in the West, even though yarigai is a far more common expression, and probably in a way more useful.
Hiroshi: As far as I understand, ikigai is becoming more well-known, whereas in Western countries, very few know about the concept of yarigai, so far. So let's see how Western people are going to get to know and to be interested in [yarigai].
Nick: Well, at least we can help a little bit with this podcast episode.
Referencing Mieko Kamiya’s Work
Hiroshi referenced Mieko Kamiya, a leading researcher on ikigai, in his work. Kamiya, a psychiatrist, explored ikigai in everyday Japanese life and wrote a book about it. She didn't treat ikigai as a scientific concept but focused on its practical presence in daily life. This influenced Hiroshi to use a qualitative approach in his paper.
Much respect to Mieko Kamiya’s work
Nick: On the theme of meaning-making, yarigai, and also ikigai, it was really a joy to see you reference the work of Dr. Mieko Kamiya in your paper. So as a physician, and someone who studied her, would you like to touch on her and her contribution to ikigai literature? Or perhaps yarigai?
Hiroshi: Yeah, thank you for asking. You know, Dr. Kamiya is a psychiatrist who explored the concept of ikigai in Japanese context. Interestingly, she wrote this book, not as an academic paper, but she said that she can explore the concept of ikigai without scientific thinking.
I mean, that there exist in our daily lives. And that's one thing got my attention. That's why I chose the methodology of qualitative study for my paper. That's one thing. Another thing is that, the difference between ikigai and yarigai, and Kamiya sensei explored the concept of ikigai by seeing a patient with psychiatric problems.
Whereas, my study is focusing on yarigai of doctors or healthcare professions. So that's another difference I found. But there are not many previous research papers or books describing ikigai and yarigai in English language, or can be understood for overseas researchers.
That is the biggest reason why I quoted her work. And by reading her book, I got much respect to her work. By that experience, I got big motivated.
Nick: Yeah, I think she was a very inspiring woman, and accomplished a lot. I like to think of her as ‘the mother of ikigai.’ So it's always nice to see her quoted or referenced.
For the full podcast conversation go to: Embracing Yarigai: Achieving Fulfilment at Work