Ikigai Summit Videos

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Ikigai Summit Discussion: Is Ikigai a Spectrum?

During the very first Ikigai Summit, esteemed professionals such as Gordon Mathews, Ken Mogi, Sachiaki Takamiya, and Shinichi Nagata engaged in a discussion on the multifaceted nature of ikigai, alongside Nick Kemp, the founder of Ikigai Tribe.

Understanding the ikigai concept

Nick: So should we move on to another subject? I mean, another theme. The original theme is ikigai a spectrum or is it maybe a handful of things?

Gordon: You asked a couple of questions of us and I wanna focus on that first question, the spectrum of ikigai. In your book, and a number of writings we’ve seen on ikigai, it’s more self-realisation, self-actualisation, it’s finding a better self. It’s something that can make your life better.

But I define ikigai in a much more practical and down to earth way. There are a few ikigai that people have: work, family, dream, maybe religious belief, maybe hobby, or maybe addiction, like alcohol. And these are simply what a person is most motivated to do and what ties into the social order.

So it’s a different kind of ikigai, it’s a much more practical ikigai. ‘Why am I working so hard? Well, because I got to support my daughter, and I really love my daughter.’ That would be ikigai. It’s just a matter that most people have it and it keeps them going.

So you can certainly think of ikigai as aspirational, we do want to develop ikigai, that’s terrific. But it’s also something people do have that’s motivate to get up in the morning.

Nick: I agree, yes. Ken?

Ken: As I said, ikigai is a really great word, which we can probably gather around and make grow what is great about Japanese culture, otherwise I wouldn’t have written the book. I’m not a japanologist, I’m a neuroscientist who’s interested in understanding how consciousness arises from the brain.

That’s my life work, that’s what I do. But if I were to write one book about Japan, that would have been ikigai, not yarigai or gaman or karoshi or ijime, or all these things. I wouldn’t have chosen these words. I would’ve chosen ikigai because I think this is a wonderful word, for many many reasons. And, you cannot describe the thousands of reasons in a nutshell, but it’s a wonderful word.

Gordon: And Nick, your book, Ken already talked about it, but it is a great example of this. One thing we haven’t mentioned is the important difference between ikigai taisho and ikigai-kan. Ikigai taisho is the object of ikigai: work or family or whatever. Ikigai-kan is the feeling that life is worth living.

And that’s what I think you are really getting at. That feeling that “ Wow. Life is good, it’s worth being here!” I get that after getting a couple of drinks late at night. That’s when we may feel it. ‘Wow, life’s worth living, it’s great to be alive!’ That’s absolutely key.

Nick: That’s what I wanted to say; do we need to emphasise that it’s something you feel, it’s tied to emotion, it’s tied to feeling. I loved our conversation when you described it; it’s something that makes you think ‘Damn! It’s good to be alive!’

Ikigai Summit Discussion: Lack of Ikigai in Japan

While the concept of ikigai originated in Japan, it is believed that many Japanese individuals struggle to find their own ikigai, leading to issues such as hikikomori (social withdrawal) and kodokushi (lonely death).

During the Ikigai Summit, which was held in February 2023, Nick Kemp, the founder of Ikigai Tribe, was joined by a group of experts including Ken Mogi, Gordon Mathews, Sachiaki Takamiya, and Shinichi Nagata, to discuss the issue of the lack of ikigai in Japan.

The absence of ikigai in Japan

Nick: So I had a few ideas for this panel discussion: one was Gordon’s question on actually ‘Is there a lack of ikigai in Japan?’, and actually Jennifer Shinkai who was on my podcast, episode 51, pointed out that on Google trends, the most searched term related to ikigai is “ikigai nai‘. So that would suggest a lack of ikigai or no ikigai.

And as Gordon pointed out, in a country with such beautiful culture, and these philosophical, and what we could call as positive psychological concepts, why do they have these problems of social withdrawal, hikikomori, lonely deaths, kodokushi, and a few others we could mention, obviously loneliness.

So this is an interesting question. So was that roughly what you like to dive into, Gordon?

Gordon: Yeah, that’s exactly my question. It’s a huge one, because we have these wonderful concepts and yet we have a society that doesn’t seem to be building structures to enable people to attain it. Ken, you are absolutely right, when you bring up these Japanese companies that have these new management structures enabling their employees to speak up.

And yet, I still sense for most of my Japanese friends, that life is much more constraining than they would have hoped for. And, many Japanese now, too, continue to leave Japan for a society that is not as structured.

So I’m wondering how these all come together. Why isn’t Japan happier?

Ken: It’s quite fascinating what you asked. First, small print. When I I write a book about ikigai or nagomi, what I’m practically doing is writing well intended fantasy about Japan. I’m not realistic, actually. I’m a scientist, so in my research, I collect data and analyse data, so I would be in a totally different state of mind.

And if your read my Japanese twitter, in Japan I’m known for being a vocal critic of many status quo of the Japanese educational system, political system, and so on. But towards people from outside Japan, for example, if you are in Hong Kong, you probably have many friends, obviously, who know what the government is doing and so on. But when you look at Hong Kong from the outside, there are many wonderful things about Hong Kong.

I tend to believe that when you write a book like nagomi or ikigai, you would focus on the bright side of that country. That’s my job description, when I write a book in English. Having said that, there are some interesting Japanese psyche, what you could call Japanese understatements.

Japanese people tend to say that they’re not so happy, they are not so satisfied, even though deep down inside, they are actually happy and satisfied. They don’t want to boast or show things (off) to people. It’s a very Japanese way of keeping a low profile, if you like.

My suspicion is because these questionnaires on which research on happiness and so on are based are linguistic in nature. For example, this word “happy”, in Japanese, shiawase, these words do not necessarily mean the same thing in English or Japanese language.

Probably, Gordon, you are aware of all these wonderful research done on wellness and international compliance. But as somebody who was originally trained as a physicist, I have some really serious doubts about the relevance of these data in actually accessing the mindset of people from different cultural backgrounds.

So what is your reaction when I said that? Do you have any hunch or intuition?

Gordon: You’re absolutely right, and I’ve written about this myself, how surveys can be completely biased. And how happy are the Americans with the pursuit of happiness. “I’m happy. I’m happy. I’m happy.” For Japanese, it would be immodest to say “I’m happy.” Of course, you’re right. Absolutely. But on the other side of this is Japanese social structure seems to be designed to create extra unhappiness.

I mean, the fact that the discrimination against women which is much more market than any other societies. Lifetime employment still goes on. The fact that a young person in their late twenties who has joined a big company may despair of leaving. Now, a lot of this is changing, I know, certainly shushoku-katsudo ( job hunting), all these things are becoming less important in a new more neo-liberal Japan.

But I often felt that the social structure seems designed to lessen happiness, which is very curious in a society, as Nick was saying earlier, a culture that invented terms like ikigai, you’d think ikigai will be a far more socially constructive concept than it actually is.

Ken: Probably, ikigai would be more of a mission statement rather than the analysis of what is here already. Ikigai is definitely in Japanese culture, there’s no doubt about it. But as you say, there are many things that could be improved in Japanese society, as in many other societies, I’m sure you all have your own share of problems in Australia, too, Nick. We all have problems.

I think ikigai is the bright torch of light.

Gordon, I completely agree with your analysis of Japanese culture and Japanese society at present. And as I said, I’m a vocal critic of all these things in Japanese. Thank you, thank you for that.

Ikigai Summit Discussion: Reflection and Metacognition

This enlightening discussion among a group of esteemed experts provide invaluable insights into the profound interplay between reflection, ikigai, happiness, and the complexities of the human experience, offering a holistic perspective that enriches our understanding of the human psyche and the pursuit of a fulfilling life.

How people achieve happiness?

Shinichi: It’s a great conversation. Gordon, I think you made a great point. Japanese have a great concept of ikigai, but why regular or normal Japanese people are not so happy? Yeah, I thought the same way.

My view of this is probably, I think the concept of ikigai, everybody knows it, but it’s probably not in people’s mind every day. It’s probably a little bit of a higher concept. Definitely, everybody knows it, but probably not realising it every day.

That might be because some people think ikigai is a very heavy thing; like small things might not be ikigai. I think Ken pointed it out, right? That it starts from small things, you can be able to find ikigai in everyday small things. And that’s exactly right.

And I did some research on ikigai. I talked to people with mental health challenges, and they felt the same way. So after I gave them a homework, like, ‘Okay, think about ikigai, and collect some pictures about ikigai’, and they did. And they did some reflection notes. And after that, I interview them, and then they say like, ‘Well, after that deep reflection, some thoughts about ikigai, I start to feel like I have some ikigai.’

But if I ask to talk to them without any preparation, having them to prepare anything, maybe they’ll say, ‘I don’t have ikigai, I don’t think I’m happy.’ I think there are some mental barriers or something, I don’t know.

We really need to reflect on ourselves to realise that. I think that’s what we’re experiencing. And another thing that I think is important was, you know, Gordon, you mentioned on social structure. I think that really is, or maybe like social discourse, like how life should be, what makes people important?

You know, how things should be? How people should be happy? Like employment, you have job, you’re successful, you will be happy. Probably Japanese people are collectivistic, so maybe, people are happy to follow that social discourse. I think that needs to be considered as well.

So those things came to my mind that I thought we need to think about.

Gordon: Yeah, I completely agree. I know where we came from different disciplines, I think we talked about this before in a different gathering. Individualism and collectivism mean less to me than just a social structure, where you’ve got to do what society tells you that you need to do, which is very powerful. That’s why somebody like Ichiro, when he left Japan to play baseball in the US, he said: ‘It’s like I’ve died and gone to heaven.’

Now, America has already have its massive problems, what I would say is an excessive individualism. But it is that pure social structure that seems to constrain people more than they need to be constrained, which is quite interesting. But I agree with what you said.

Ken: Nick, can I give just a quick response to what Shin said? So there is this Dunning-Kruger effect in cognitive science, this is the idea that incompetent people think that they are competent. When people talk about happiness, I sometimes feel that the less metacognition one has, the more he/she would be happy.

I mean, this is an idea that probably happiness comes from a lack of understanding of human condition. And that’s certainly true, and I’m probably talking about Americans. I’m sorry Americans, I mean no harm.

Another issue is that this philosophy of Leibniz, Leibniz subscribed to what they would call philosophical optimism. He claimed that this world is the best of all possible worlds. This is a really interesting argument from Leibniz.

From that point of view, no matter which society you live, whether it’s mainland China, Hong Kong, North Korea, or Japan, once you adjust to a certain environment, you can find your small happiness no matter where you are.

Of course, we need to improve the society. I think there are several cognitive science and philosophical subtleties to be considered. Gordon, do you have any response to this? You know what I’m thinking at.

Gordon: I’m actually quoting Leibniz in my talk, so yes.

Ken: That’s great. Shin, thank you for your wonderful talk.

Ikigai Summit Discussion: The Pursuit of Personal Ikigai

Here’s a captivating conversation on the perception of ikigai in its country of origin, Japan. Exploring how the Japanese insight differs from the popularized perception, revealing that it may not hold as much significance in Japanese culture as commonly believed.

Is ikigai valued in Japan?

Nick: Let’s hear from Sachiaki. Sachiaki, you have the floor.

Sachiaki: First of all, thank you for inviting me to speak at this wonderful Ikigai Summit. I’m very honoured and very excited about it.

So I suppose, because ikigai has so many definitions, and maybe people have different perception of what ikigai is. But I think, when you look at ikigai, there’s kind of a personal level and a collective level. I think in Japan, as a sort of collective society, I don’t think personal ikigai is valued so much. We’re not really allowed to have pleasures and things in life so much.

That’s how I was taught. That’s how I was kind of brought up in schools, and maybe workplace, and everything. It’s more like we’re here to serve. We’re here to serve the community. If you work for a company, maybe to help building the company.

And if you’re in school, maybe you’re there to learn as a member of the group, to become constructive or useful in the entire school. Or because you’re a student, so you want to become a good adult, to serve the community or the country, and so on.

In many ways, the personal pleasure, even joy, is not regarded to be something important. I mean, you can probably have pleasures, but it’s not the main focus of our education or work.

In Japan, it’s true that somehow ikigai is not valued so much, in spite of the fact that ikigai is a Japanese concept and many people do have ikigai, as a socety, it is not something we can focus on. So in other words, ikigai is like being taken advantage by the establishment, or by kind of the body of an organisation, whether it’s a school, or the government, or the company.

Because if each can find a small happiness in whatever you’re doing, even though you’re in an oppress situation, then nobody will complain about the oppressor, because you look for the reason within yourself. Or it depends with your perception. And if you can feel happy about anything, then you’ll be happy.

But quite often, the problem maybe in the structure of the organisation, the way things are managed. Probably in the West, people are more willing to criticise the government, but in Japan, we try to find the answers within our own feelings.

But again, it’s one aspect of the Japanese culture. I don’t personally feel that many people are depressed or oppressed. I know a lot of people who are happy, people who have daily joys and pleasures in their lives. And some of them have even bigger life goals and missions, too. And they’re very excited and feel motivated to live.

So there are plenty of ikigai, but as a society, I think it is true that we don’t seem to value the pursuit of personal ikigai so much as a society.

Nick: Do you think for some Japanese, because they might have a very hard lifestyle, they work long hours, or they have loneliness, that their ikigai source is a coping mechanism that helps them get through life, rather than it makes their life worth living?

Sometimes I have that impression. So that’s sort of slightly different to what we generally perceive ikigai to be — a coping mechanism, rather than something that makes your life worth living.

Sachiaki: Yeah, the coping mechanism is quite big, I think. But it has both a positive and negative side. If it is practised in a personal level, like you choose to feel this way, it becomes very positive. But when this concept is kind of forced upon from a body of organisation to the members of that organisation, then it more like controlling.

Gordon: Absolutely, that makes perfect sense. Just one tiny bit that I want to add to is that the most individualistic people I’ve ever met are Japanese. That’s because in a society with such a high degree of social structure, you know, somebody says, ‘Jibun yaritai koto o yaritai’ ‘I wanna do what I wanna do.’

Where I come from, that’s common sense, nobody says that. In Japan, you do have to say it, and those who insist on it, often do really make their own fairly unique paths. So it’s quite remarkable how people can find happiness by not being within those social structures.

Shinichi: I don’t know. If that person who says like ‘I wanna do that’, one out of hundred people, those people stands out, because all the other people are like following what the others are doing.

Gordon: It is true. In Japan, Shinichi, you can do it. One very good friend of mine who is an utter utter utter individualist, living his own life the way he wants to live, told me, ‘Japan’s a wonderful place, and I can do whatever I want to do, and I never starved to death.’

Shinichi: Yeah, that’s true.

Ikigai Summit Discussion: Is There a Collective Ikigai?

A panel of esteemed experts delve into the intriguing question of whether a "collective ikigai" is attainable, where individuals come together to share a unified sense of purpose and passion in life.

Can ikigai be shared?

Nick: So we have a question from Makoto, who was actually also a podcast guest. So a question to the speakers: “What are your perspectives on collective ikigai? In other words, what would be the similarities and differences that you could have compared to personal ikigai?”

Collective ikigai, I’m not sure what that means. Is that in terms that many people would share an ikigai?

Gordon: I don’t believe in collective ikigai. Ikigai is always found in one’s on mind. You can have powers to be, say ‘this should be your ikigai’ but whether you believe it or not. Let’s go back to the kamikaze pilots in WWII, who smashed their planes. They should have been saying ‘Bonzai Tei no Henkai’, Hooray for the Emperor!”, they were probably saying “Mother!.

That’s just an example of how you can make people conform, but you can’t alter the inside of their mind. So I’m not sure there is a collective ikigai.

Sachiaki: Yeah, when I think about collective ikigai, I don’t know if it’s ikigai or not, but sports is one example. Like a world cup, for example. Most people probably cheer their own country. So during the world cup, like the whole nation becomes one, and everybody kind of wishes strongly that their country wins.

It’s not so much about Japan, because Japan is not a big soccer country, but when I think about Argentina who won the world cup, I heard a story of many people saving life-worth money, or maybe they’re selling their house to go to the world cup, to just buy the ticket.

So soccer means so much to them, and it’s of course a personal ikigai, too. Maybe for them, soccer is their ikigai, or watching the world cup, or going to the world cup to witness their country winning, would be their personal ikigai.

But it happens in a such collective level, that maybe in Argentina, you can kind of say, it is a collective ikigai. And that applies to many other sporting events.

Gordon: Terrific example. You’re exactly right. Nobody’s saying you must love your country, you must cheer for Argentina or Brazil, whatever it is. No, nobody says that, but people do anyway. And of course, the dangerous downside of that is, the world cup or the Olympic is great; wartime is also a form of collective ikigai, where everyone agrees that ‘those guys are bad, and we’re good.’

Not everybody agrees, most people do. So that’s the downside of this. But that does enter the realm of the collective ikigai. You’re probably, right? A mass crowd ikigai.

Nick: This is interesting, Gordon. This actually reminds me of our conversation, and at the time of our podcast, you were experiencing the Hong Kong protest. That also seems like a collective short-term ikigai, but it’s at least a collective one.

Gordon: You’re right. And what happened in Hong Kong, of course, is that many people still believe that, but they don’t say it now. So the government may say, ‘Love your motherland.’ Very few young people believe that, in the slightest. But you simply don’t say you don’t love your motherland in public. So you can’t force that ikigai on people.

Except through change in the educational curriculum, maybe a generation or two, you can. But you can’t do it very quickly.

Ikigai: Embracing the Beauty of Small Moments

Is is possible to find ikigai even in the small things? Nick, together with Trudy Boyle, Clark Chilson, and Shintaro Kono, engages in a discussion highlighting the presence of opportunities to discover ikigai, even within the realm of small moments.

Finding ikigai in everyday life

Trudy: I think that I would love to start with ikigai in the small. For me, the whole idea of the joy of small things that can lead to a meaningful life is wonderful. And particularly, because I work with people with illness, and so therefore. I don't want to give my talk now, so I have to be careful.

But I love the small things, because so often, especially in the West, we're geared to producing action figures. And we're geared to becoming famous, and having fame and fortune, and working very, very hard to produce and be productive.

And I don't think that that helps us. So I think ikigai, because of its focus on ‘how can we have a good life every day, no matter what else is going on?’ is the area that really, really interests me.

Nick: I agree. And it certainly takes the pressure off, doesn't it?

Trudy: It does. Because no matter what happens, you can create little joyful, meaningful moments. I love the word eudaimonia, because it can mean happy and not happy. We don't really have a word like that in English, but it's that idea that things can be going really wrong in your life, but you can still have these heartfelt, meaningful moments, along with all the things that are going wrong.

Nick: It's a touch on that Ken Mogi, we didn't talk about this yesterday, but he's written that he can easily identify 100 sources of ikigai. And he describes ikigai being robust, because if you have this bad start to the day, and you spill your coffee on yourself, or you get a bad email, it doesn't matter.

A few hours later, you can have a great meal or a great conversation with someone, or do work you care about, and feel ikigai. So yeah, that's fascinating, to have 100 ikigai sources.

Trudy: Yeah, I think there's lots, I have lots, and it changes over time. That's my experience.

Nick: Thank you. What about you, Clark? What are your thoughts on this?

Clark: Well, I think that if we have a sense of purpose in life, that purpose can become our ikigai. And that purpose can override all the little things that happen that are unpleasant. There is no getting through life without unpleasantness, there will be unpleasantness.

There will be days when many of us are not going to feel very motivated. But if we have a sense of purpose, and we make that sense of purpose more important than how we feel, we don't become tyrannized by our own feelings, then we can live with a sense of ikigai and echoes Trudy's point: we can live with that sense of ikigai regardless of what is happening.

Because our purpose is more important than the little things happening.

Nick: Yes, that reminds me of maybe to tie in purpose into the small Japanese expression, chanto suru, and doing things properly.

So I love this idea of sense of purpose, and that it helps us get through our day. But Japanese are really good at tying purpose into the small as well, and on this theme of small things. So I think we should now get the perspective of someone who's Japanese, but has lived also for quite a long time outside of Japan.

So Shin, you're probably the most qualified person to talk about ikigai here. So what are your thoughts on small ikigai?

Shintaro: Thanks, Nick. And hi Trudy, Clark, and everybody else. Well, I don't know about most qualified about that. But I identify as a person who do research about ikigai, because maybe I'm not, you know, I’m an ikigai deprived person, maybe.

But anyway, as a background, I'm Japanese, born and raised until 21, and I came to North America for my advanced degrees. Lived here in North America, US, and Canada, for like, 11, 12 years. And I do research leisure.

Yes, you heard it right. Actually, there’s a science about leisure, free time behavior, basically. That's what I do. So going back to your original question, Nick, about ikigai and small, that's where I think leisure shines in a way.

And also leisure is sometimes, the relationship between leisure and ikigai is lost sometimes that we can be so busy in our daily lives, bogged down — work, family, relationships, so many other things, and Pandemic, not to mention, that we can forget about some of the small, but very cherishable moments of leisure.

So the first study I conducted, it wasn't really focused on ikigai, but it was about how leisure can potentially help psychosocial recovery of the disaster survivors in 2011, the March 11, if you remember the earthquake and tsunami and nuclear crisis in Japan.

So I talked to some of the survivors a year after that, and I just asked like, ‘Okay, what makes you going?’ With so many problems, financial issues, they lost a family members and friends, they lost the house, there's so many problems they're still having, and what makes you keep going?

You know, wake up in the morning and get going with your life. Many people are talking about, ‘You know what, Shin, I can do gardening now, I have my garden back. And if flower came out, probably just, you know, bloom.’

And that for some people, many people, it's just small things, but it meant very much from their perspective. And just really taking a time pausing and really giving ourself and our life to appreciate that, to actually even look at that, and recognize that, I think there's quite a bit of value to it, and our life systematically biases not to do so to an extent.

So that's I think, where leisure comes in a lot of leisure experiences come in, it's not just about the big major trip like, bucket list trip that makes your life, your ikigai increase, but maybe it's a day-to-day small moment.

Thrill of Having Something to Look Forward to

How do you feel when you have something to anticipate? Together with various professionals, Nick explores how having something to look forward to (tanoshimi) can evoke a sense of ikigai.

A crucial element of ikigai

Nick: Yeah, that touches on another one of my favorite words, tanoshimi. So maybe we could move the discussion to that: to look forward to things. So tanoshimi can mean just enjoyment, but it can also mean to look forward to.

And it's actually one of my favorite expressions that I discovered in Japan. I remember my first year, while I was working there as a restaurant trainee, and I tell my coworkers, I think I said, I'm going to see Forrest Gump on the weekend.

And this coworker said, tanoshimi dane, I'm like, well, that's interesting. We don't say that in English, we don't go, ‘Oh, that's something to look forward to.’ So yeah, these beautiful, unique expressions. But this seems to be a crucial element of ikigai, to have things to look forward to.

Clark, you lived in Japan for quite a long time. So I'm sure you would have heard that word, or that phrase quite a bit. What are your thoughts on it? Is it one of your favorite words, too?

Clark: Often, when I talk with friends about what we're going to do in the future, I often use the expression. You know, we're gonna meet in a week or so and do this. And tanoshimi ni shiteimasu. I think there are two ways of thinking about tanoshimi.

You can think about it in the future sense, and you can also think about it in the present sense. And I think the phrase itself sounds like it's about the future. But it's also about the present insofar as we have a life.

If we recognize that we have a life, in which we have things to look forward to, that we're blessed in that way, then there is a sense that my life is meaningful, that what I'm doing is meaningful. So I think in that way, we can think about tanoshimi as not just about the future, but also a reflection of where my life is now; that I have these friendships; that I have these people to share my life with; that I'm able to do these good things.

So in that way, I do see a link with ikigai and tanoshimi: being in the present rather than just in the future.

Nick: Yeah, a valid point, I agree. What about you, Trudy? A question perhaps more relatable to your work with people who do have illness, is it important that they feel tanoshimi in the present, but they also have things to look forward to?

Trudy: I agree fully. People need to have things to look forward to. Even though my work is very present-centered, it's good to be able to look forward to many different things. The end of treatment as an example, that's something to look forward to as you're coming close to it.

Or even, I'd like to diverge just a little bit though from the illness, and give you an example of my own mother who lived to be 100 years old. I was organizing a big birthday party for her on the west coast of Canada, and 75 people coming. And I had decided along with my sister that we wouldn't surprise her with all the events that were coming.

That we would tell her on an ongoing basis what was happening, so she would have something to look forward to. Because my mother loves celebrations. As it turned out, I'm really glad I did that, because her birthday was April 13, 2020, it had to be canceled because of COVID.

So that whole birthday party, if we had kept this as a surprise, she would have had nothing. But she had all the joy and all the wonder of knowing what was happening, who was coming. We took her to show her the beautiful place it would be held at, the menu, all of those things really fueled her ikigai because she's a celebrator.

And so I mentioned that, because I now not so much like to surprise people, as I like to give them something to look forward to. And I think ‘Yeah, she can get to look forward to this next year.’ ‘Next year, I'm going to Japan, I can look forward to this.’ And so it's the joy of looking forward to it. And then you get to have the joy of the experience.

Nick: The double whammy effect. I love it. It's beautiful.

Clark: I think, I mean, if there's any psychologist present, they can either confirm or deny this. But I do remember reading somewhere that many people actually derive more pleasure from the run-up to the experience than the experience itself.

And so having the sense of a run-up to the experience and looking forward to it, is part of of living a joyful life. I think we can also connect that with something that we hear a lot about now and we've heard a lot about over the past few years, which is this idea of how to make ourselves and others more resilient.

And I think, having a sense of tanoshimi is a way we make ourselves more resilient to deal with what we need to do.

Nick: I love it. I love that idea, actually. It's kind of like the Christmas effect, the anticipation when we were kids, the anticipation of your father leaving Christmas presents under the tree seem more intense and pleasurable than after you've opened them.

You might be disappointed, you've got a pair of socks through your hands or something. But we'll probably move into resilience, too. But Shin, I always think it must be fascinating for you, because you're someone who is Japanese. But you've spent all this time researching words that most Japanese would not even really think about: ikigai, and now, tanoshimi.

So you've just heard us touch on tanoshimi. What are your thoughts about tanoshimi? And perhaps relate it to your research as well.

Shintaro: Well, I think that's a terrific discussion here. So I'm very interested in what you guys have to say about it. And to me, it's a privilege that I have the both of the linguistic and cultural background a little bit, and also in my own research, too, when I talk to Japanese people, when I go back, and I live in English world, typically.

So I have this moment of when I do interview and whatnot, I have to think about, okay, this word, it keeps coming up, whether it's tanoshimi or whatever. And then I have to take that moment, oh, what does that even mean?

Because these people, well, Japanese people, especially, or whatever, whoever that might be, they use those words pretty mindlessly, that's just embedded into their daily conversation, they just keep using it. But for me, okay, what would that be if I am to translate it?

And I realize sometimes that happened to tanoshimi, too, that I can translate it into two different ways. Whether it's like what Clark was saying, that's one aspect is the present for Christmas, that being here and now, and really embracing it, with all 100% attentions and awareness and enjoying it.

Versus the other side is to look forward to, so that's a more future tense. And when I did that, and go like, okay, which one did they mean? Sometimes they meant one way or another, sometimes it's both were important, you know, that presentness, present experience turned into an, you know, they're going to come back to, they're going to look forward to coming back to the experience in their future. So that becomes the future tense, and so on, and so forth.

So that, different languages and different words provide us the ways to look at the things. You know, the activities, and those things are not connected, they're not disconnected from each other, that exist in a more, that's why I like to use the word experience rather than activity or behavior.

That it's more episodic in a way, that it's not, activities are more, you know, there's a clear cut when you get there to do some activity, and then you finish it. And that's one activity versus experience is in that person's mind. There's that story that’s leading up to it, that anticipation of it.

And I'm aware of the psychological study of tourism and other things, that experience designing and management, that actually like just like what Clark was saying, that actually, people's positive emotions and whatnot are building up, increasing, actually, before the on site experience.

And by the time people were actually ending it, they experienced the emotions actually decreasing because they're sad actually finishing that leaving that to an extent as well. So that really challenges maybe the present and the future.

We tend to conceptualize somewhat discreetly, differently, separately, but they're actually connected into people's life. And that may be there's something about that, and ikigai and things like that. So that that has been very interesting for me, to think about those words, representing different ways to look at, and fields and whatnot.

Ikigai and Resilience: Unleashing Inner Strength and Purpose

What helps you bounce back from life's struggles? Nick Kemp, Trudy Boyle, Clark Chilson, and Shintaro Kono engage in a discussion, exploring the benefits of ikigai for individuals navigating challenging situations.

Exploring the connection between ikigai and resilience

Nick: How about we turn things up a bit, and Clark, you touched on resilience, and I'd like to share something from another speaker who joined the summit, Yasuhiro Kotera. And I just want to read this out. Then we can maybe discuss ikigai and resilience. So he writes:

‘Ikigai fits with existential positive psychology. It is also regarded as the second wave of positive psychology that recognizes meaning in suffering and resilience, as well as being able to overcome challenges. And this is where ikigai and resilience intersect.

Resilience is one's ability to bounce back from difficulties and those who live with ikigai can find meaning in life's difficulties. Good mental health does not mean you’re always happy, rather, it means realizing that life comes with difficulties and being able to overcome them.’

I don't think this is often discussed. Most people have this perception that ikigai is your bliss, and we all know the Venn diagram, and we've talked about small joys, today, and the importance of having things to look forward to and natsukashii, and reflecting on what you have already.

And I guess, this collective, in a way, wisdom, and that's if we were doing things, we should perhaps do them for the enjoyment of them and not have this sense of pressure of, ‘Oh, I've got to do my 10,000 steps today’, rather than just going out for a nice walk. Hopefully, where you'll experience all.

But I think we need to touch on ikigai and resilience. So I think, Trudy, you'd have a lot of experience with this with your work with people who deal with illness, not just people going through cancer, but families who have to support their loved ones. And to get through it all, they must have resilience.

So what are your thoughts on ikigai and resilience?

Trudy: I think ikigai has a lot to offer. So when I think about ikigai and illness, I think ikigai really cultivates or I promote curiosity. So that ikigai, if you cultivate a curious mind, so for instance, ikigai does not create peace of mind, as far as I'm concerned.

But if you can create a curious mind, and a flexible mind, and a mind that will adapt itself to changing circumstances, then you've got something to work with when you're going through really difficult times. And so I love that. Because ikigai and illness is built completely on Morita principles.

And I think that one of the aspects, one of the foundational elements of ikigai and illness is that you challenge yourself mentally and physically. So you do hard things, even when they're hard, even when you're nervous about it, but there's big benefits.

It's why Dr. Itami had people climbing Mount Fuji and Mont Blanc, because he felt that when you challenge yourself, mentally and physically, that you had much more inner resources and strength to fight the cancer. I don't really like the word fight, but to work with the cancer or your illness.

So I think ikigai is just a blessing in the whole area of resilience. It has so much to offer.

Nick: I'm sure you're going to talk about Dr. Itami in your presentation. So I won’t ask questions. But Clark, would you like to now chime in?

Clark: Yeah, I'm reminded of that, the saying: ‘If I have a why, I can deal with any how.’ There was someone who is, and forgive me for not remembering the person's name, but I know someone gave a presentation on logotherapy for the summit.

Nick: Dr. Nina Burklin.

Clark: I think. You know, that really applies when we think about ikigai and resilience, in the sense that those who have a sense of ikigai are going to be much more resilient than those who don't. And so for that reason, learning how to cultivate a sense of ikigai is very important for flourishing.

I mean, I once had an exchange during COVID, I was a little concerned. Personally, I was a little concerned. We were constantly asking students how they were doing. And there was a lot of encouragement to ask students how they were doing.

And I said, I'm not opposed to other people doing that, but I don't want to do that. And the reason why I don't want to do that is because if I keep asking them how they're doing, I'm afraid they're going to start thinking that there's something wrong with that.

They're going to start thinking, like, ‘Why do you keep asking me that? Should I not be doing okay?’ And so the ideas of making people feel resilient, is the idea that, not just that they're okay, but like, together as a community in the classroom, at least together, we have something to do here.

And whatever is going on in the rest of our lives, we can take these moments, and just deal with what life is calling us to do with that moment. And when we respond to what life is calling us to do at any particular moment, then we are living in a sense of purpose and ikigai, because we are responding to the next right thing to do, which is what life is calling us to do.

And to my mind, my point was to my colleague, for me, that's how I prefer to think about making students more resilient — by letting them know that we can be okay. You know, we can just respond to what life is calling us to do, and when we do that, we'll be okay. And knowing that we're okay builds resilience.

Nick: I think from our conversation, the word cultivate came up in our podcast. And I think that's probably the best verb to, or not the best verb, but I really liked that verb for ikigai, to cultivate one's ikigai. Suggesting that you already have it, let's try and make the most of it and maximize it. And I guess that would help build resilience.

So maybe toward the end of this discussion, we'll talk about cultivating our ikigai, and we can offer some advice. But Shin, would you like to now chime in on ikigai and resilience?

Shintaro: Sure, I thought that was brilliant passage. I thought it was beautiful thing. And there's so much really essence of the ikigai captured here that really in relation to that existential positive psychology.

It really to me what ikigai is, that it's neither purely positive nor negative, and then so is the life. And then that recognition and working between that. For example, one of my ikigai theories shows that the perceived value of day-to-day experience really feeds into our ikigai, perception of ikigai, feeling your life is worth living.

And one of the valuable experience that my students, or the student I interviewed kept talking to was the, in Japanese, we say gambaru, that's making efforts and facing challenging experiences and situations.

And from that, you may achieve something, or you may fail, eventually, actually overall, but you grow as a person sometimes. So you take something out of it, there are lessons, too. And that effortful experience is really, it can be uncomfortable in a short term that it can give you stress, it can give you short term setbacks, it can frustrate you.

And just be okay with that for a moment and just stick to it, too, and persist in that situation and, invest in that, and enjoy the growth through it. And that was recognized as one of those beneficiary experience.

So really, if you look at it in a short term, it can be stressful, it can be ‘negative.’ But in the long run, resilience suggests that you can grow, you can bounce back and bounce forward, if you will, and you can come out as a little stronger version of yourself, and that's very important.

Finding Flow: Cultivating Your Ikigai to Move Forward

How can you discover the sources of your ikigai? Although ikigai may not directly equate to happiness, having a sense of ikigai can provide a feeling that life is moving forward, even in the face of challenging moments. Nick engages in a discussion with a diverse group of professionals, highlighting the significance of cultivating and discovering sources of ikigai to navigate the challenges of daily life.

Realistic view of ikigai

Nick: I think we'll start with you, Clark, because you're the one who sort of mentioned this verb, cultivate with ikigai. So how would you like to start?

Clark: So I think if people don't like the word cultivate, or that word does not resonate with them, I think we use the word develop, I think that works as well. And now I'm gonna say something slightly controversial.

I'm concerned if someone tries to make their ikigai ‘happiness’, if they define happiness as feeling good, if they define happiness as positive effect. If they define happiness as feeling good, and that becomes their ikigai to have happiness, which they understand is feeling good.

My concern is, there's going to be loads of times in life where we just don't feel good. And so we are not going to have ikigai at those moments. So if we want to live in a sense of ikigai, it would be better to ground the meaning of our lives in something more stable than our feelings.

Nick: I like this. I often say ikigai not about happiness, perhaps life-satisfaction is maybe a better way to think of it. And I think you can have some life-satisfaction getting through resilience. The emotional part, that's interesting, because obviously, I've just written a book about ikigai with Ikigai-kan, and emphasizing that it is something you feel.

So would you like to touch on that a bit more? I mean, I guess in a way, we're not always in control of our emotions. Is that sort of what you're touching on?

Clark: This is not a perfect analogy, but it is the best I can come up with off the top of my head right now. So if one takes care of themselves, then they're going to feel relatively healthy, or at least more healthy than they would if they didn't take care of themselves.

So that feeling is not completely stable, but it is more stable than the feeling would be if we're just trying to obtain good feelings by living a hedonistic driven life. I forget who said this, but somebody said hedonism is no fun. And the reason why that is because if we're pursuing good feelings, we're certain we're going to find misery pretty quickly.

And so in that way, I think having a feeling of ikigai is somewhat analogous to having a feeling of being in good health, which is somewhat fortunate, but also somewhat within someone's lifestyle, the way that they live their life.

Nick: I think Michiko Kumano describes ikigai as a type of well-being, it's not happiness. And I agree what you're saying. And what Trudy mentioned before, perhaps Eudaimonia is far closer to ikigai than hedonistic lifestyle. So yeah, Trudy would you like to touch on that?

Trudy: So when I'm talking about ikigai to people now, in my sliver of the world, with people living with illness, I talk about it from the idea of purpose, about small purposes, purposes for today. What is the reason? What are some things that are important for you to do? And then do them.

Not big life purposes at all. Because when you're ill, you've just been put on notice, right? You're reminded that you're mortal. You don't have a date, but you're reminded that there is an expiry date, we all have one.

And so with that, it's really important that you do the things that you consider to be important to do now, but not things that you have to wait ‘till you're better. Not until you're finished treatment. What are very specific, small purposes, that you can do right now with things as they are, and then you do those every single day.

And then the joy is only ever talked about as the joyful moments, right in the midst of the treatment, and midst of the pain, and midst of that hassles that go on. It's moments that we can all, nobody's going to be joyful all the time, I've never met anybody like that, like awful things can happen.

But we can have joyful, meaningful, purposeful moments, every single day, in spite of what else is happening. So that's kind of my approach.

Nick: That actually reminds me of something that Ken Mogi talked about. He says, you could see each day as an opportunity to have a series of dopamine-releasing activities, and that could be your ikigai. You wake up, you stretch your arms out, and get some sunlight, you have a cold shower and have the endorphins flying around.

Then you have your favorite cup of tea or coffee, and then you put on your favorite song and who knows, dance around in your own way. And just you can have these small things that release dopamine in that moment. Yeah, it's joyful, but doesn't guarantee you'll be happy all the time. And that is a crucial distinction.

Trudy: And we don't need to be happy all the time.

Nick: Yeah, that's a valid point, we can't be happy all the time. And that's why I don't like people saying, ‘Oh ikigai is your bliss.’ So Shin, let’s come back to you, because, again, you're the most qualified for this.

Shin: Oh, no. I think this conversation has been brilliant. And it gave me some ideas that I want to explore more, so thank you. Just wanted to echo Trudy’s point about, I also agree that ikigai is actually not this grandiose idea of what some people call ‘meaning of life’ or ‘purpose of life.’

As in life, as in the metaphysical idea of like, either your entire lifespan or the humanity. Like if you started to talk about that you get depressed, seriously, I tried, not recommended. And many other people try it and they get depressed, too.

But it's a meaning in life that everyday life, that you wake up today, got excited about teaching class, got excited to attend this ikigai summit, and just had a good time, good conversations stimulated, have fun, challenge, and go to sleep.

And you know what, that was a good day. And I think continuation of that, and accumulation of that is just simply sometimes ikigai. So having that realistic view of ikigai to me is very important. Another thing that I keep talking about coming back to is the diversity or repertoire of associative ikigai.

Some people are like, especially people in extreme careers, or occupations, or life where it's like, athletes, like their entire life revolves around let's say, golf, or basketball, or whatever. And that is their ikigai, too, which is amazing. I have talked to some of those people, too.

But I also worry, because all the eggs are in one bucket, what's going to happen if you get injured, the pandemic happen, whatnot? So in terms of cultivating ikigai, I typically advice to have some different things.

And that's where, I think, work can be… for many of the many some of us who can work, which is a privilege, I think it's a strong source of ikigai, potentially. But for many of us, leisure, that's where leisure can come in, that you can have an extra supplementary sources of ikigai. And leisure can be one of that.

Other type of life domains, other aspects of life domain can be that, too, so that you have something else just in case. And that goes back to the idea of resilience, and just that leisure piece coming into that conversation. And then final piece of advice if I have to give and like where do we find source of ikigai, really? I don't feel like I have anything.

Well, what I typically do in my interview with people sometimes is that: think about the life without this or that? And do that mental, what we call in psychology, mental subtraction or something that, okay, how does it feel like to have a life, everyday life, without this hobby, or that part of work, or something or that person, this relationship, or whatever.

And really imagine it. And it may make you sad for the time being, but that's a hint, you step onto something that may be that actually is something that you're thinking about. That maybe is a big super important source of effort, or enjoyment, or whatever, or ibasho, their authentic relationship, whatever that may be.

The tricky thing about ikigai is that when you have it, it goes kind of unrecognized, because we take it for granted so easily. And we just regret when we lose those things. And that's really missed opportunity. So doing such mental exercise sometimes and just recognizing that, oh, those are the things that I have maybe as a source of ikigai, and they invest on that. So I think that can be a step forward.

Reflections on Past Experiences

Does one's ikigai evolve with age? An insightful discussion among professionals, exploring how the accumulated ikigai over the years can influence an individual's sense of purpose as they grow older.

Ikigai for older adults

Sachiaki: Yeah, I have a question. So I think when you talked about that feeling of natsukashi, kind of remembering the past thing, and then maybe it is more relevant for senior citizens. Because the older you get, of course, you can still cultivate your opportunities, and you can still enjoy your life and things.

But generally speaking, it becomes, basically, you have less opportunities compared to when you were younger. Therefore, quite often you spend your time reflecting upon your life and some of your earlier memories, or earlier accomplishments, still, plays a key role in your ikigai.

So I just want to know how other people think of this point. Ikigai for senior citizens, and how reflecting upon the past can help them?

Nick: Awesome, nice question. Who would like to answer?

Trudy: Am I the oldest?

Nick: You're the wisest.

Trudy: I know I'm not, but I think I'm the oldest in this group. So I'll say it has two parts to looking back. You can look back, I have regrets. Right? I have regrets. And I'm not one of the people who think you should never have regrets, it's not true.

Like I have real regrets. There are things I wish I had done differently, or things I didn't do, and I wish I had done. But it doesn't paralyze me. So that when something like that happens again, I have an opportunity to do something different.

So I think there are regrets. But I also think, I was thinking about it, and thinking that, there are periods of time that really stand out. It's kind of like a net. And there's little light at certain times, certain ages. Like, I'm so glad I did that.

And that's something that brings me comfort. And I'm glad coming to Ottawa 11 years ago, that was a huge decision. And I am so glad I made that decision, even though I had to give up something that I didn't want to give up. And there were other consequences.

But I do agree with the questioner that as you're older, you can look back and you can distill some of the very lovely things that you did that made up your life. And you can also look clearly, shinely at the things you wished you didn't do. But it's okay. We're human, right? And I appreciate our humanity.

Nick: Wonderful. How was that Sachiaki?

Sachiaki: Yeah, thank you very much. I think it's really true. I am actually 60 years old now, which is still young, depending on your definition. But I think all the more, I think about those questions as sort of senior citizens and how seniors use ikigai.

Nick: Awesome. Shin, go ahead.

Shintaro: Yeah. Can I jump in there a bit? And it was a very great question, and Trudy’s response. And I wanted to kind of chime in to that, because my first study, well, first couple of studies, actually, two were based on university students.

So one of the limitations that I noted was the fact that there were young adults, emerging adults, I guess, we typically call, and, you know, older person's perceptions and experience of ikigai might have been a little different.

And one of the things that I specifically noted was one of the theories that I have is called houkousei or life-directionality, which is about connections that people create between past, current, and future. And maybe students were more future-oriented in a way because we think that we have much more in our life moving forward, rather than who someone who lived to 60 years, 80 years, and so on, and so forth.

So they may have extreme over backward, and not in a bad way. But you know, they have, in a way, sort of like a rich bank of ikigai sources that you can actually make. So many connections, in so many different ways, that who you are today is supported by, even though your life journey may have been messy like this, but you can make such a rich and complex tapestry of the many things that fitted into and shaped who you are today. So that could be rich thing.

And just to take your question, step forward, though, is the ikigai across generations. And that could be a very interesting question that I would love to study. That yes, you may not live for example, let's say somebody may not live because they're 80 years old, so the next 20 years, in 20 years.

But they could still impact the next generation, other people, community, right. And that become their ikigai, but still future-oriented way beyond their lifespan, their time here on earth. And in which I think it's very interesting and it could be psychological work, it could be the work that could save the humanity.

That's a grandiose statement, but you know, in the long run, and I think that's what many people do, many people retire, many people find a meaningful volunteer job or teaching gigs because they want to pass on something to the next generations.

Ad how that impacts people's ikigai and how we can do that better, and how it can trigger that thought, some of the people with the rich experiences, so that they would have more opportunity, more people will come out and come up to actually give more expertise and their tips and whatnot for the next generation. I think that could be an interesting ikigai research in itself.

Trudy: You should do it.

Shin: Thank you. I kind of need the money and time, but I’ll figure it out.

Nick: You've got a lot of research to do actually, Shin, from this conversation. So good luck.