Exploring the Embodiment of Ikigai with Jamila Rodrigues

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Ikigai: A Culturally Rooted Word

How to best define ikigai? Ikigai is a multifaceted concept that can be understood and defined in various ways. Jamila highlights that ikigai is a term deeply rooted in Japanese culture and its meaning may vary depending on the context and the person interpreting it.

Defining ikigai

Nick: We'll move on to this really interesting question and one even I struggled to define. And that's how would you define ikigai? After all these interviews and all these research you have done? I think it's quite a hard question to answer.

Jamila: Yeah, I mean, everyone has their own definitions. I think we might all come down to the same answer, potentially. But because it's so difficult to define, and as I told you before, I'm going to use another word, which is also a cultural word.

So in Portuguese, and also in the Creole language, we have the word saudade. Now, saudade, it's a word that can be defined as a kind of nostalgic feeling caused by distance by something or by someone.

An absence of a person, you know, when someone dies, or an absence of not being in a place, or the desire of going to certain experiences, situations. But there's no conqual, real definition of this word saudade, because it's really rooted in the Portuguese language.

And Mozambique people, Cape words, Brazilians, all Portuguese speaking cultures, they understand the word, but we can't really translate. And I was talking to another colleague of mine, Igor de Almeida, he works at Kyoto University, and we were talking about this ikigai idea. And he was the one who said to me, 'Well, it's a little bit like saudade, isn't it?'

So it's a concept that is culturally rooted. Everyone knows, but no one speaks about it. So if you ask me what saudade is, you know, I'll just give you the explanation, but there's no concrete because it's something that I feel.

So ikigai in that sense might be a way of life, a sense of mission, a sense of life meaning. But it can also just be general well-being, right? Or about the things that you want to do or that you envision to do, or that you like to do.

My idea as a dancer and working on body studies and embodiment is that just as saudade, I feel it in my body, I feel that ikigai is also corporeal feeling, so it's a bodily sensation. And I understood that also, not just because I had this hypothesis, but also doing field work with my participants and finding out about their ideas of ikigai, and how are they expressing ikigai.

Nick: There you go. I think you just proved how complex it is, and how in some cases, I guess, if we're fortunate enough to learn and speak maybe multiple languages, we might come across similar words. And that saudade, is that right?

Jamila: Yeah, saudade.

Nick: That actually sounds very similar to the word natsukashii, that idea of nostalgia and longing. And that is a component of ikigai. That even memories can be a source of ikigai for some people. And that's, yeah, I remember when I first went to Japan, and when I started going out with friends, I would occasionally hear this word, natsukashii, and as you know, Japanese often just speak in verbs or adjectives.

And I was trying to work out, what does this word mean? And we don't say something like, 'Oh, how nostalgic', we would have to say, 'Oh, that candy. I love that candy, I used to eat that candy in my childhood.'

But Japanese can work it out from context. And that's the fascinating thing about I guess languages, and for me, Japanese. So it is a complex concept. But it's something ,I guess, quite intuitive. Obviously for some Japanese they just grow up with it. So it's fascinating.

An Embodied Perspective of Ikigai

Is there an effective approach to understand ikigai? Jamila believes that to better understand ikigai, we must approach it from an embodied perspective, as it is a lived experience.

Embodied way of knowing ourselves

Nick: You argue that an embodied perspective of ikigai is essential to studies on well-being, life meaning, or general human behavior. So would you like to expand on that?

Jamila: We spoke about embodiment, right? I don't know who's listening to the podcast. So let me just unpack what I mean with embodiment, first. I see embodiment defined in how we experience the world.

And I said that before, right. So we experience the world and the interconnections between sensory, cognitive, emotional, and corporeal dimensions. So I like to think that the body provides us with embodied ways of knowing ourselves and knowing our surroundings, not as our minds being detached from our bodies, but as cohesive human beings.

So, when I started to think about ikigai and the phenomenon of ikigai, and this lived experience, then I thought about, well, if ikigai is also a general way of well-being, of flourishing in life, then we need to place the body at the center.

Because our well-being comes from our subjective perceptions and orientations and values and engagement with the world. And that requires body knowledge to embody and make sense of itself. And these interrelated dimensions of cognition and emotions, and sensations, muscles, nerves, and gut as you explain, so it's all interconnected, right?

Nick: Yes, it is. And I'm now surprised why hasn't this been explored. I don't think I've found a paper like yours before. So this really has opened up the door wider on the ikigai world for me. So thank you, for doing the research. It’s always a real joy to…

I mean, as you probably know, one of my ikigai is researching ikigai. And so when I learn, I love to learn. So I've learned so much from this paper and our discussion. Our previous discussion.

Jamila: I'm glad you liked it.

Somatic Experiences: What is it?

Somatic processes involve letting go of analytical thinking and immersing oneself in the present moment. Jamila sought to investigate how this process relates to ikigai, and from her interviews, she formulated the framework of embodied ikigai.

The ikigai embodiment experience

Nick: Let's touch on your paper, you state that ikigai should be studied as both a somatic and embodied process. And I'll be honest here, this is why I learn, I stumble upon these words, but I don't really fully understand. And that would be somatic.

So these words are related to experiences of the body. But how is somatic, and maybe embodied process, how are these two terms different?

Jamila: Okay, so somatic experiences, right? Somatic experience is sort of like alternative therapy. And usually somatic practitioners work with treating patients or people with certain traumas, or certain stress-related disorders.

And somatic experiences, or somatic practices can be anything that relates to body and mind. So, I would say yoga therapy could be a somatic process. Walking meditation can be a somatic process. So a somatic experience that comes from the somatic process, right?

So it's this awareness of your body and mind as one -- soma. So meditation does that a lot, right? So when you have these, you know, your mind is not detached from your body, although you might have the sensation of detachment, right? The sensation of being not in the body, but that sensation of not being in the body, happens through the body. So it's paradoxical.

When you tell me, “Well, I had a sensation that I'm outside of my body.”, you can recall that sensation as a sensation of not being in the body. So it's a bit paradoxical. And the somatic practice happens with that.

So I think, when I started to walk again, after the car accident, I decided to do walking meditation, because I needed to retrain my feet, and I needed to retrain having the sensation of having the weight of my body on Earth, literally, because I couldn't before. So I call that a somatic practice, the awareness of where your feet are in relation to the floor, and the elements that were around me.

So I was in a forest, and I had dogs, and there are days that, obviously, you're walking in absolute silence, or you might experience the sun, or you might experience wind, or you might experience rain, and you don't overanalyse the sensations, but you let them happen.

And the somatic process, it's kind of related to that, this way of letting go with no analysing and just feel what happens now. And I wanted to explore that feeling of what happens of ikigai. If that makes any sense.

So then I developed a framework to study ikigai as embodiment. And that framework, again, doesn't come just from my hypothesis, but it comes from the interviews that I've done with my participants. So this is just an idea of my participants.

But I think, for example, the ikigai embodiment experience relates to the sense of self, to the interaction with the environment, with people's relationships with others, sometimes calls for reflection, for perception. Sometimes it's about imagination, how you imagine ikigai.

Seeing Things from Another’s Point of View

Taking the time to reflect on how others perceive you can offer valuable insights and be a beneficial exercise. While receiving criticism can be challenging, it's important to remember that such feedback can offer opportunities for personal growth and improvement. Jamila reveals how actively paying attention to the opinions of others has allowed her to view things from a fresh angle.

We learn from one another

Nick: I guess we are our authentic self, when we are lost in writing or drawing or singing, we are expressing who we are. And so if we have people critique that, and we're open to feedback. Or even just critique who we are. ‘How am I as a person?’ Be honest. If we're open to that feedback, it will be very helpful. That's quite related to, is it Naikan?

Jamila: Yeah, it could be Naikan. Yeah, where you spend your time in introspection. What the other did for you good, and what did you did good for that person? And then come to a place where the therapist comes and talk to you, but essentially, just very minimal talk. And you come back into this reflection.

Nick: I strongly see it very much as self-reflection, and you verbalize it to total strangers.

Jamila: Yeah. But I think that's important, right? I mean, usually, if I do have something in my life that I don't know how to fix or it's really bothering me, I want opinions from people who know me, or sometimes people who don't know me, so they can be more neutral.

And different opinions help. I think having an eye from outside help. It helps you to be better. And observing other people, helps you to observe yourself as well. I think my work as an anthropologist, one of the things that we do as anthropologists is observe people, right?

And I think by observing others, and observing other people's behaviors, and the way they see the world and construct the world, you learn about your own world. You learn how to challenge your biases, how to debunk your biases, how to be more inclusive, more diverse, to open your horizons.

And also, you know, to get out of your comfort zone. Not all my friends tell me you're doing the right thing. It also takes bravery for the people that know you well, and say, you're not doing the right thing. I think I value that a lot, not just the ones that say, ‘Well, I support you fully in what you're doing.’ ‘Actually I don't support you, because I think this might be dangerous, or this might lead to a, b, and c.’

And then all of a sudden, you start seeing things from a different perspective. Those opinions, you have to cherish these opinions, and you have to embrace them and be humbled enough to say, well, maybe, the way I'm stubborn in doing things, or, my way of thinking or my way of seeing this problem, let's see what this person here, this is quite a contribution. So, thank you. But that takes guts, right?

Nick: Yeah. It takes vulnerability on your part, and honesty. I mean, a lot of friends, maybe they've added discomfort or care and maybe they're not gonna be fully honest. So there's that vulnerability on your part to ‘Hey, I want you to critique this, or tell me what you think I am or who I am.’

And hopefully, you do have friends who will be honest to say, ‘This is good, but what you're doing here, I don't think it's you or it doesn't seem to align to your values. So I'm not sure why you're doing it. Why you're doing this?’ That's a good friend. A friend you can trust.

Jamila: I mean, because we all need mentors in life, right? Our school mentors, our club mentors, our friends are our mentors, our partners are our mentors, they are our masters, and we are all masters for each other.

Navigating Life’s Highs and Lows

How do you overcome difficult moments in life? Jamila’s article explores the concept of ikigai as a powerful coping mechanism during times of crisis.

Embracing ikigai in times of crisis

Nick: I'm really excited that we can explore this theme and talk about your latest article, ‘In the middle of up and down, ikigai is there’: Japanese women embodied narratives of crisis and coping. So that's an interesting title. Is the up and down of in the middle of up and down, ikigai is there referring to the ups and downs of life?

Jamila: Yes. Actually, this in the middle of up and down, it's a quote from one of my participants.

Right at the end of the interview, she told me, ‘In the middle of up and down, ikigai is there’ and I think she meant that in the up and down of life, we can still feel our meaning in life, our well-being, our ikigai. So yeah, absolutely.

Nick: And where are you at the moment? Are you up, or in the middle, or down?

Jamila: I'm in the middle. I would say I'm in the middle, wanting to be up.

Nick: Me, too. Sounds familiar.

Jamila: I think in a sense, we're always in the middle. Not often we’re up, sometimes we’re down, I think, the balance is in the middle.

Nick: So it's a great quote. I love it. As I just mentioned, your article explores contemporary Japanese women's narratives of crisis, and its embodied experience, and how it relates to ideas of ikigai. And to quote you:

‘This is an exploratory study, and it was conducted to gain insight into women's embodied experience of times of crisis and how they find or maintain ikigai during this time.’

So a fascinating theme. So what attracted you, or inspired you to explore this theme?

Jamila: I think it goes back to our first meeting, the fact that I personally had quite a big crisis with the car accident and everything that involves all my dance career, and everything that was left behind out of this traumatic experience.

So most often, I feel that when people experience some sort of loss of direction, confusion, or sadness in their life, we tend to seek out for things, we tend to seek out for answers. You know, self-help books, texts, psychology, other forms of therapy, listening to a podcast. So people do seek out for things.

But sometimes the answers we seek in times of crisis are exactly within us. And if we stop and put that into practice, and put into practice, what we already know, and what we already learned from life, or simply attending to our body, so listening to what's happening inside of us.

In that sense, I wanted to explore the stories of ordinary people. People like you and I, crisis and problems that in one way or another we all go through, or that we can relate to. And I wanted to hear from them, how did they overcome these issues? And how do they maintain their ikigai or well-being?

And through the interviews, I actually found there was one participant that also had a car accident. So I could relate really well to her experience. And I think that's what inspired me to explore this theme.

Nick: It is a fascinating subject. And I was reflecting on this earlier today and thought if have I gone through crisis. I thought I hadn't. And then I realized I had a significant crisis, which I won't mention now. But yeah, we all at some stage in our life will probably face some major crisis. And hopefully we can maintain our ikigai, or learn about it, and be able to share it with others.

Exploring Themes of Crisis and Coping

How do you handle a crisis? Jamila sheds light on the various ways individuals face and overcome difficult situations. With unique challenges in every person's life, the approach to coping differs depending on the specific circumstances. Jamila emphasizes that crisis and coping are dynamic concepts that evolve over time, adapting to the ever-changing nature of our experiences.

Diverse ways of coping with crisis

Nick: Well, let's touch on your article, because in short, you explored two questions. One was what kinds of crises do Japanese women choose to discuss, and how do they embody this experience? And what lessons can we learn from embodying ikigai as a principle that you can lay on and a coping mechanism that women use to thrive in times of crisis?

And I noticed you referenced Kamiya, ‘as a principle that you can lay on.’ So it's good to see her name pop up, the mother of ikigai. So I think it would be helpful to maybe touch on crisis and coping.

These are two main themes, and how you would define it? Are they slightly different in how Japanese interpret these terms, crisis and coping?

Jamila: There are many different words for crisis in Japanese, right? So when I actually asked the participants if you had kiki, I thought kiki was going to be the word that most represented crisis. And some of them actually said, kikide wanai, so they didn't have crisis, they had a hard time.

And a lot of them decided to not speak about crisis and speak about the hard time, so taihen, something that was difficult for them. In English, we don't have that. Crisis is a crisis. But crisis and coping, they can mean different things. So we have personal crises, social crises, environmental crises, and the same happens with coping.

So going back to my research question, how do they cope? I think, in general terms, coping is a process that entails different levels and its outcome depends on how the individual handles that stress. It can be psychological, physiological, gendered, temporal, social, can also be cultural-based, and involves moment-to-moment interactions.

So coping is not fixed, it's a process that evolves. And it can be also regarded as normative and individual. And as I said, it consists of these kind of like, multiple, real-time transactions that occur episodic time. And they are constantly changing because crisis also change. So if there's a crisis that changes through time, then coping mechanism will evolve through time.

Nick: This time aspect’s interesting. It just reminded me of my brother-in-law, my Japanese family's oldest son lost his wife to cancer earlier this year, so very young, I think early 50s, with two children. So they've gone through this incredible crisis of the diagnosis, trying to cope, and I guess fight cancer.

Then her getting sick, and then her now dying, and then processing that, and the two children she has left behind and how their father's going to bring them up. And how for him coping with that means a lot of support from his deceased wife's parents.

And so I think it's interesting how crisis could be just one event, and it lasts maybe 24 hours or a week. And then you have something like a disease, and after the person's gone, there's still this hard time. And it sort of you wonder, when does it end? When does this crisis period end? Does it involve acceptance?

Jamila: There are processes. I think, maybe, in that particular case, it's almost like a second crisis that emerges. You have to deal with the immediate crisis of the person in that situation. And then the second crisis, it becomes even more at the individual level, which is the reaction that I have to the event. So it becomes another very personal crisis.

So there are processes. And like you said, there are things that can stay for five minutes, because I cut my finger and I have a crisis, or there are things that are very long term and these coping mechanisms, they sort of adjust to our crisis. But they are there to help us go through the crisis and somehow make it better or more bearable.

How Ikigai Supports Crisis Coping

In times of adversity, it's common to experience a sense of confusion and lack of motivation. However, the concept of ikigai provides a valuable tool to confront these challenging situations. According to Jamila, ikigai can serve as a coping mechanism during difficult moments by offering individuals a profound sense of personal fulfillment.

Finding meaning amidst difficulties

Nick: So this is where we're tying ikigai into crisis. And you propose that ikigai is one coping tool that helps women to deal with crisis experience, and the emotions, motivations and ways in which they organize and communicate ideas regarding this experience.

So how did you come to this idea or realization that ikigai can be seen as a coping mechanism to overcome personal crisis?

Jamila: Well, I read some literature, specially on psychology studies that speak about meaning of life, and how having meaning of life helps people to have a sense of direction. And I think, when you have a crisis, you sometimes lose sense of direction in life.

But the feeling of ikigai, or the sensation of ikigai is generally a feeling of personal satisfaction. It's about happiness, self expression, and it's very intimate and unique. It's unique to individual. And it reflects a moment where we feel that life is on the right track, potentially.

Or we realize what we want to do, what we like what makes us feel alive and move forward. And that feeling is, at least to me, it's liberating, and allows us to face the less positive aspects of our life, less positive things that are happening in moments of crisis.

So I like to think that if we can have access to our ikigai, our well-being, that sort of feeling within us, it might be a way of helping ourselves. It might be a good platform to jump from a negative aspect to a positive aspect.

Different Types of Crises

Throughout our lives, we encounter a wide array of crises. According to Jamila, the individuals she interviewed divulged a multitude of crisis experiences, encompassing illnesses, work-related challenges, living abroad, interpersonal relationships, and family matters.

Moments of crisis

Nick: So let's focus on the types of crisis you identified or your interviewees shared with you. So what what did they narratives of crisis include?

Jamila: So they varied. Some of them, for example, were related to illness. And illness, as in long term chronic illnesses or accidents, for example, operations and moments where they found out about their condition.

Others were related to work, career change, overworking, challenging colleagues, challenging bosses, so work-related crisis. Living abroad, I had a couple of participants that told me they had cultural identity crisis, the fact that they didn't speak a language or they struggled to be culturally accepted in social adaptation and things like that.

Others were very, also, in terms of interpersonal relationships, couple, couple crisis and friends crisis, times when friends die. And that brings the other person the sense of immense lost, such as your best friend dies or your mother dies.

And then family crisis, it's very personal and difficult because they share things, you know, domestic violence, or going through divorce or childhood abuse or childhood trauma. So they were very, very intimate, personal type of crisis.

Nick: Yeah, I imagine that's, obviously that's hard to share with someone. Did you feel that some of the interviewees were comfortable to share these intimate personal stories or experiences?

Jamila: I mean, from the start, they knew what I wanted to interview about. So they knew the topics. And obviously, if people know the topics, they make the decision if they want to talk about it or not. And obviously, people can share different types of crisis.

So some crisis were very light, but they cause stress, and others were quite intimate. And I felt that they wanted to speak about this crisis. So in a sense, it was also therapeutic for them to reflect back about their life experience, and how do they overcome these challenging moments in life.

So there was a sort of common agreement and an acceptance that these stories were going to be shared, anonymized, and published.

Women’s Journeys of Self-Transformation

Is it possible for a difficult situation to alter your sense of self? Jamila shares how women who have endured traumatic experiences perceive the world through a different lens and gain profound self-insight.

Learning from traumatic experiences

Nick: Let’s lean the other way and go back to one of the points, and that was self-realization. And I'd like to quote you:

‘Ikigai and its embodied experience may serve as a coping mechanism for women, dealing with personal crises, to process and assimilate changes, leading to growth and personal fulfillment. These experiences transformed women's sense of self.’

So I think that relates to self-realization, obviously. So, would you like to touch on what ways or how these experiences transform these women's sense of self?

Jamila: So like I explained, because some of these crises are related to identity, cultural identity, or social roles, some of these experiences transform their sense of identity. So they might feel more useful in society, or they might feel that their career has changed, and they found a better career for themselves.

It also can be a big, deep personal experience, and transform them at a deep level, when people go through clinical conditions, that transforms them, and the way they change their identity from a so-called healthy human being, to a so-called unhealthy human being, a person with a condition.

So that transforms a sense of who you are, but on the more positive aspects, there's a sense of inner calm or being at peace with themselves. And I think through trauma and learning how to overcome this trauma, women became more aware of the world around them, as well.

Things that work and that don’t work, what sort of actions lead to certain decisions. And that is all part of self-development, and self-development then transforms your sense of self. I think when you make conscious decisions to change your life, it's scary, some of those decisions, right?

It takes a lot of time. Am I changing jobs? Am I divorcing my partner? Am I letting my child go to somewhere that I want to go? Or do I do this operation? Or do I take my parents home? Or do I put them in a elderly home?

There's always, you know, we’re bombarded with decisions that we have to make every day. So, having some sort of ikigai might help you to navigate through those decisions.

Nick: There are all these elements of growth, maybe sometimes stepping out your comfort zone, acceptance. But ikigai might ask as this stabilizer or just help you balance things and keep you grounded.

For the full podcast conversation, go to: The Embodiment of Ikigai with Jamila Rodrigues