All About Ikigai: Kei Tsuda’s Perspective on Meaningful Living

*Watch the full playlist above.

The Start of Ikigai Journey

Kei shares how his discovery of the 'Ikigai Venn Diagram' prompted him to delve into the concept of ikigai extensively, resulting in a profound realization that it encompasses more than what can be represented in a simple diagram.

Applying the ikigai concept

Nick: Growing up in Japan, did you ever give much thought to ikigai? Because obviously, I know that most Japanese don't.

Kei: You are right with that assessment. When I was growing up, I didn't think of it much. I mean, I've been introduced to the word and how it gets used through my conversations with my grandparents. Probably that's the set of people who used it most.

And typically in the context of how they are interacting with me, the grandchild, they basically feel that they, you know, having that close communication with kids, their grandchildren, is part of their ikigai. So I vaguely remember that I'm one of their ikigai. That's the extent

Nick: I remember when living in Japan, I can't really recall hearing ikigai other than a few occasions when I was introduced to it. But I remember hearing yarigai almost at least every week, maybe potentially every day. So that seems far more common. How would you say most Japanese perceive ikigai?

Kei: So I think a lot of the folks in Japan would agree, I think you and I both think about this a lot; that ikigai is something we feel naturally. And in some cases, I think we stumble upon it. We don't necessarily seek as much. Some people do, but I think in general, people don't really look for it. It’s just they feel on a daily basis. And then maybe at some point, they start to realize that oh, I may be pursuing my ikigai.

Nick: It's interesting, because I guess if you're pursuing it or seeking, it would suggest you don't have it. If you're not seeking it, it's obviously something that's part of your life. But I imagine even in that context, most people wouldn't be thinking, ‘Oh, this hobby of mine’s my ikigai.’ They'll just be thinking, I really enjoy this hobby, or I really enjoy seeing my grandchildren.

Kei: We have more of like a more lighthearted stance towards the word in the concept. And we don't necessarily kind of write it on the wall, right? And basically, try to pursue it every day.

Nick: Well, you certainly don't put it in the center of a Venn diagram. And so that's my next question: what are your thoughts on the ikigai Venn diagram that's incredibly popular on LinkedIn, which I know you're pretty active on?

Kei: Yeah, so my initial reaction to it wasn't great. It was somewhat of a shock and disbelief. But what's interesting, and this is how I really got caught, you know, got into this research is, it was really followed by the self-doubt, because as you said, it's so popular.

So when you search the internet, or if you get on LinkedIn, and connect with others, everyone is sharing that Venn diagram. And that part of my experience led to some search. And it just, this whole screen is full of them. And Government of Japan, and a few other website is now starting to get associated with this Venn diagram, that whether they knew it or not, right aside.

So I started to think that maybe my reaction is wrong. So that's why when I started the journey to apply this ikigai concept to work out what I wanted to do next, in my career, in my life, I did force myself to use that Venn diagram.

Part of me basically says, let's kind of give benefit of the doubt that a lot of people like it, so maybe I should start using that. So that's how I kind of started my research or the journey of ikigai.

Why Research About Ikigai

After grasping the concept of ikigai, Kei seamlessly integrated it into his life, experiencing profound transformations. Now, he endeavors to share this knowledge with others.

Researching ikigai as a source of ikigai

Nick: I remember one of my ikigai tribe members said that the Venn diagram is very seductive—it's inspiring everyone, most people would want that dream job, I guess, would want to be in that sweet spot. And then replace purpose with ikigai and then it has this even greater attraction because there’s this element of mystery behind it.

Kei: I agree with that. It added that mystique, you know, it's like, well, I don't understand that word, it's something could be magical. Let me pursue it, let me find my own.

Nick: Yeah, I remember seeing it and my initial reaction was, ah, I remember that word, but that's not how it was described to me. And I remember showing my wife and she just rolled her eyes and walked off.

Even someone today who have connected with me, sent me a message saying, Nick, maybe you need to think about trying to retitle the Venn diagram. And that's actually what I don't want to do. Like, I really don't want to spend too much time focusing on the Venn diagram. I want to spend more time exploring ikigai, both the research but also the opinions of Japanese and non-Japanese, who live it in an authentic way.

And it sounds like for you, researching ikigai has become a source of ikigai, or a source of serious research. So is that the case? Has it become a serious source of research for you?

Kei: Yeah, that absolutely is the case. And I have been really fascinated with these systems and theories, even, I think as far back as I can remember, maybe elementary school days. And at first, right, I was, again, applying those kinds of desire to learn systems and theories towards engineering and towards aerospace.

But then, something happened when I actually started my adult life. And I actually did not pursue aerospace in career, like, I didn't become an astronaut. I mean, if I have, you probably do kind of know or see me on a TV somewhere. But that didn't happen.

I realized that I'm more of a like a people person, and interacting with people gave me joy. And later, I learned that my motivation comes from learning the systems and theories, and applying those things towards the services of people.

And if you think about this ikigai research and the situation that the way into, everybody's trying to figure out how to use ikigai framework or this concept, in context, like, again, some people may be looking to do a career change, great. That's one way to use it. In other aspects, that people are truly looking for that purpose in life, that's great.

But then I'm starting to think about, okay, this concept of ikigai could be applied in so many different situations, for the betterment of people's lives. So that got me going. And as I was learning to apply it for myself, the one idea came to my head and said, well, why don't I start sharing what I'm learning with others? And then I thought about, okay, how do I do that.

And again, I'm into the systems and theories. So I thought about it for a while, said, maybe LinkedIn will be a really good platform, because it's available to everyone, I'm still connected to my network of friends, colleagues from the past, current and potentially future. And it's got these features I learned last summer, that there's like the content, you know, features to create articles, and so on, so forth.

So, basically, I jumped on and started writing articles and started getting some feedbacks and responses from my close friends. And it's kind of interesting, it started to evolve. So that the group of people who were following me first, of course, were the colleagues that I worked with, but then my college buddies from years back, or even the people I worked with in Japan, started to kind of follow and give me words of encouragement, ‘Hey, keep it going. I like what you're doing.’

And now, I'm basically every day reading something about ikigai or related subject. And I'm planning on coming up with a list of articles that I may be able to write in the coming weeks and month. So that's what's happening.

Recognizing Mieko Kamiya’s Works

Nick and Kei discuss how Mieko Kamiya, a researcher on ikigai, hasn't received the recognition she deserves for her contributions to the concept.

Respect towards strong women

Nick: As you know, one particular lady, whom we’re both big fans of, Mieko Kamiya, who I like to think of as the mother of ikigai, was this amazing research pioneer. And I know you have read her book Ikigai-ni-Tsuite. Would you like to touch on her and your thoughts of her? Do you think she gets enough recognition in Japan?

Kei: I say no. I think her work was, I'm not sure if I'm using a too strong a word, but I think it was revolutionary at the time. I mean, I was awed by the content that she captured in her book, and it was published, I believe in 1966.

So what is it? Is it more or less 50 years now? And all those, you know, the characteristics and descriptions that she gave, starting with the fact that, I think she's the one who coined the term ikigai-kan, I believe. And that is the title of your book, too.

And yet, her name does not come up too much. Going back to the search discussion earlier, when you search ikigai, again, I know it is bias towards the English language, if you type in ikigai in romaji. Even when I typed it in Japanese, I noticed that the her book and article does not come towards the top. So that means the popularity isn't still there.

Nick: I was just gonna say it's unfortunate because she really predates this positive psychology movement by 35 years.

Kei: Right. She was already having the idea at that time.

Nick: It's a male dominated, I guess, area of research. So few women get recognized as much as men. And yeah, she really does predate the positive psychology movement. And no one knows about it, even in Japan. So it's crazy.

Kei: Yeah, I agree. Speaking of mother of ikigai, or this, you know, male dominated nature of the world. This could be a little bit of a sideline here. But I think Japan does have, even though Japan is also known for not doing great in terms of, again, giving equal rights to women.

At the same time, culturally, and historically, there are leaders, women leaders in the history; you probably know about Himiko, it's way back when Japan was ruled by a woman leader. Also in the recent years, and it this is how I grew up, and actually probably my kids are impacted by it as well.

What’s famous is like the the movies made by Ghibli and Hayao Miyazaki. And I think everybody knows or recognizes that the protagonist in his movies are typically women. And there are stories about you know, why that is, and so on, so forth.

So there is this respect towards strong women in our culture, and yet, it hasn't really become like a prime time, or has been showcased as much. And it seems a similar thing I did observe here.

Ikigai Varies Uniquely for Each Individual

Kei believes that ikigai is individually unique, shaped by our values, and subject to change as we evolve over time.

Ikigai cannot be borrowed or imitated

Nick: So we should mention in her book, she wrote six characteristics of ikigai that kind of help the reader understand what a source of ikigai is. And they go quite deep. So what one that stood out for you that is interesting? What one do you like?

Kei: I think the point she makes, there are two points, sorry. So the number four and number five. So she says, as a point number five, that ikigai is entirely individualistic, and it cannot be borrowed or imitated. That's the very strong point.

And the reason why I pair that with number five is there is a strong correlation. So the fifth point she brings up is ikigai holds the nature of establishing a value system, in the heart of the person who possesses it. And when I read that part, I mean, I got a shock, positive shock.

And the reason is, before reading her book, I told you earlier, I started kind of organizing my ikigai and how I would go about, like, visualizing and framing my ikigai. And what I was doing, essentially was I was trying to establish a value system of my own. And I was a huge aha moment for me.

And if you think about it, why do you have to establish your own system? Because it is entirely individualistic, how we view our values, how we view what's more valuable or not, it depends. Most of us have different upbringing, different encounters, the events that shapes your value, and then another factor is that value start to shift or change over time.

So this individual ikigai also evolves over time. If you try to stuff that together into a somewhat very rigid framework, and I think the Venn diagram somewhat tends to be that way, because the idea of the Venn diagram is to force people to think in terms of number of elements, and the famous one happens to have four elements.

And I think you kind of hinted it earlier, Nick, we can debate that the Venn diagram, on and on and on, like, what should we put in the middle? But then the fact that it's a Venn diagram, that's not going to change.

My point is, I don't think, I mean, if the Venn diagram works with people, poor, great, I don't have anything against that. But I think these value systems need to be framed up a little bit more loose, malleable, changeable framework. And as the realization, I realized that Mieko Kamiya has already called it out more than 50 years ago.

Do We Need Money For Ikigai?

For Kei, experiencing ikigai doesn't hinge on money. Nevertheless, for some, finding fulfillment in earning money can be a significant aspect of their ikigai, particularly when it's tied to supporting themselves and their families.

One can feel ikigai with or without money

Nick: You note that earning money holds significant practical importance in life. And then, of course, we need money. But do we need money for ikigai? Or could money ever become a source of ikigai?

Kei: To answer your first question of is money required for ikigai? Of course, the answer is no. And of course, Mieko Kamiya has pointed out that you could feel ikigai with or without money. And I think it's more often without.

Or having said another way, it's easier to find ikigai when you remove that money component from the framework. But to answer your second question, I do believe that some people can feel ikigai from earning money. So that's why I think that the Ikigai Venn diagram may work really well for those type of people.

So making the earnings or making living by working and earning money, that may be very, very important. If that ranks really high on their life importance, then that can be their ikigai.

Nick: Yeah. Even Gordon Mathews, who wrote an incredible book on ikigai, What Makes Life Worth Living, noted that some people might have morally, it's morally wrong, or almost shallow sources of ikigai, like, cigarettes or alcohol. Or maybe money might fit into that. I guess it's what you do with it.

But yeah, you know, if that cigarette helps you get through the day, and if that first sip of beer makes you feel good, then it can be your ikigai, which is interesting.

Kei: We kind of say that ikigai can have a negative effect when applied, because it is a feeling. So if you have feeling towards something that you know that might lead over time to bad health, but then you're applying it, that means, I believe that is still your ikigai. And just that, that ikigai may ultimately give you a shorter life. So it won't be a good book

Nick: Not something worth dying for. But be you know, you had something unhealthy, but you still do it, which a lot of people do, because it gives them that relief, it gives them that comfort.

Learning About Mieko Kamiya

For those delving deeply into the concept of ikigai, the name Mieko Kamiya, a Japanese psychiatrist and author, is likely to emerge. Despite her significant contributions, her work hasn't received the recognition it deserves. Nick and Kei explore the early life of Mieko Kamiya.

Mieko Kamiya’s life

Nick: Today, I thought we'd talk about the woman who I like to refer to as ‘ The Mother of Ikigai’ and how she is clearly underrecognized, not well-known. But she was Japan's pioneering researcher on the ikigai concept, and I think we both agree and that she deserves more recognition.

Kei: Absolutely.

Nick: So I'll give a bit of an introduction, and then we'll talk about her life. So she was the daughter of a wealthy diplomat, socially-elite parents, and they actually opposed her choice of becoming a doctor. And I think it was a real battle for her to become a doctor, and her parents trying to stop her becoming a doctor.

She had this desire to help those suffering from mental disorders, and also lepers. She also became an author later in her life. I see her as a woman of many roles and talents. Not only was she a psychiatrist and author, she was also a translator. And she was also had to be a housewife and mother of two children.

She's spoken several foreign languages, including French and English. And as a translator, she translated Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations in Japanese from Greek. She taught psychiatry at several Japanese universities, and she was also a private tutor to Princess Michiko, who served as the Empress consort until 2019.

I think she treated her before she married into the royal family. So quite quite an amazing CV. So how well-known is she in Japan today?

Kei: Some people, of course, know her. I asked my mother actually, but she didn't recognize her name. And of course, my mother is of the age that she would have kind of, not directly, but have heard of her if she was on TV back in the 1960s and 70s. But she didn't recognize her.

So I think for those people who are interested in psychiatry, psychology, I'm sure she has been well known. But in Japan, her name may not be as widely known as other giants in the field. But something happened in 2018; the Japanese broadcast network NHK did a special program on her work and life.

I suspect that that was because of the attention to ikigai was coming back right around 2016 and 2017. So on the TV show, they did two back-to-back episodes on her background and her line of work. And I'm sure that brought some attention back to herself and ikigai as a topic.

Nick: I actually saw those. I saw two of the episodes on YouTube, but they're now no longer available. They’re behind a paywall now.

Kei: Yeah, they put out paywall, but you can still watch it. It was quite good. I watched it before it became a paid subscription.

Utilizing Kamiya’s Contributions

Kei is training to become an ikigai development advisor in Japan, and Kamiya's works were part of the textbook. This helped Kei understand that ikigai changes as people get older. While ikigai is a common term in Japan, its importance in a person's life can vary with age.

Practically applying Kamiya's work

Nick: I believe at the time when she published her book, it did become a best seller. I'm not sure what that really means in Japan; how many sales that equates to. But it is a bit strange that no one seems to know her.

Kei: There's one exception, I think, is among the folks called the Ikigai Development Advisor in Japan. So that's the program I'm going through myself right now, to become a certified health and ikigai development advisor, is what they're called.

Their textbook prominently features Mieko Kamiya herself her book, Ikigai-ni-tsuite. With that in mind, I think there is a little bit of thinking that ikigai is for the eldery, or for people who has aged more. That sentiment is sort of there.

And we don't necessarily hear too often about ikigai among, let's say, young Japanese—college students and others. I mean, it is a commonly used word as we've been saying all along. But how often do they use it, will probably differ by age.

Nick: Yeah, so touching on these health and ikigai development advisors in Japan. So you're currently taking the program, and you're in Japan, and you're going through it. So how was it when you discovered they featured her work? Specifically, another mentioned her ikigai needs and her definition, and also the characteristics.

So was that sort of refreshing? And I guess, something you celebrated like, ‘Oh, they're recognizing her work.’

Kei: Learning to see that her work is actually being used in something more practical or a program that designed to prompt action. Because in the western world, there’s a lot of ‘how to’ or self-care books and everything else.

Well, here it is, I think the Ikigai-ni-tsuite concept is being used and kind of integrated into some of the activities that can be planned and executed among, in this case, the retirees and elders in Japan.

How Ikigai and Resilience Intersect

Kei highlights the similarities between ikigai and resilience, noting that facing life’s challenges enhances our resilience and deepens our experience of ikigai.

Life challenges can lead to discovering ikigai

Nick: Moving on, at the leprosarium, she began to hope that she could work there and devote herself to these leprosy patients. And again, she faced opposition from her father. Basically, he said no, so her decision was overruled. I think this caused a lot of frustration.

In her later life, she wrote about her frustration. So between the years of 1944 to 1949, she did become a student of Psychiatry at the University of Tokyo. Then, she married her future husband, Kamiya Noburo, they got married in 1946.

And for the next decade, she played the role of housewife and mother, while also teaching foreign languages and correcting the English language papers of her husband and his students. And she did not like that. So in several diary entries, from 1954, she expressed her frustration at being unable to pursue perhaps her most important source of ikigai due to these commitments.

She wrote: ‘Every day, I get so frustrated with my English correction to the point I want to kill myself. Is life the experience of doing things you don't want to do? How long do I have to be a language teacher? Languages, you are a curse of me.

If I spend so much time on these things, I will never be able to stand on my own as a psychiatrist. I don't know how many times I have thought of giving up my full-time job and becoming a lecturer. How can I manage the responsibilities of a full-time job, my family and my studies? It's a very human thing to do. Oh, God, please give me the strength I need to climb these mountains forever and ever and ever and ever.’

So very frustrated writing that diary entry.

Kei: Yeah, and this has taken place at the post-war Japan, too. I think the war ended around 1945, I believe. So the country was in the middle of rebuilding, trying to find its footings. And that's when she was also trying to find her footings which is kind of interesting, it kind of overlaps.

But those words and struggle, is something that I think a lot of folks, even today, especially the mothers will probably share. I mean, it's been 56 years since our time, but her household responsibilities and how those things arranged, especially in Japan, I think still has a long way to go.

So in a way, she was already kind of pointing out the movement, that kind of later becomes the feminist movement and also the rights for women in Japan. Even though I don't think there's any record of her being directly participating in those activities, but I'm sure she may have influenced a lot of folks who may have come up, you know, grown after her, to voice their perspectives on these matters.

Nick: Yeah, I also think the entry indicates this struggle from a lack of shimeikan, like a sense of purpose. Some people might think, wow, she was already successful and achieving so many things. And who knows, maybe someone in her position might have enjoyed correcting English and teaching languages, but it obviously didn't give her the sense of purpose she was seeking, obviously, related to psychiatry, and helping lepers.

And there is a book, a biography on her life called, A Woman with Demons. And I was a bit shocked by the title of the book. But it was inspired actually by one of her diary entries where she said, ‘My demons are raging again today.’ And she was frustrated with life.

And, yeah, she had this incredible desire to really do something with her life, and help others who are less fortunate than her. But she also suffered a lot of loss and pain. So she even had several decades of depression due to the loss of her first love.

She fell in love with a young man. It was one of her brother's friends, and she really didn't even know him, she kind of just only had a few encounters with him, but fell in love with him. And he died of tuberculosis, I think. Then she battled, obviously multiple illnesses, tuberculosis, later cancer.

And she obviously lived almost two decades, or at least a decade living with the frustration of not being able to pursue work as a scholar and writer, and also, the battle she had with her father on wanting to help lepers.

So I think we could say she struggled in her life with a lack of ikigai for extended periods of time. So do you think all these life experiences and all this frustration helped to understand the multi-dimensional nature of ikigai?

Kei: Surely, more certainly. And I know, we'll be discussing Ikigai-ni-tsuite, the book in another episode. But the way she writes the book, yes, she does use the words or the phrases as if she's kind of uncovered through certain studies, but I feel that she is including her own experiences over it.

Even though she doesn't clearly state those things. Can I bring up a passage from the book? So there is a passage which says: ‘So the people encounter obstacles, again, two walls blocking their path in different forms, and at different times, throughout their lives. And they come to realize their power, those walls are really powerful. At such moments, the issue of finding ikigai inevitably arises, is a life filled with such sadness and suffering still worth living. What should one live for from now on?’

And to your point, I think this was in her mind, if not all the time over the course of her life. And another thing I'm kind of drawing a correlation to is based on some of the readings I've been doing; is that it's the concept of resilience—psychologists and others cover it.

But I think this ikigai perspective is very similar to how the concept of resilience is discussed today. That the more often you encounter these kinds of life situations, the more resilient you will become. So, essentially, the people who face the disadvantages and challenges in their life situations especially like earlier in life tend to develop resilience much faster. And that's I think what took place here with Mieko Kamiya herself.

What About Ikigai?

Nick and Kei talk about Mieko Kamiya’s ikigai for writing—her love for writing that led her to publish her book, Ikigai-ni-tsuite.

Kamiya’s passion for writing

Nick: Now writing was a lifelong ambition for Kamiya, but one that she was unable to pursue until the later years of her life. On September 7, 1961, upon completing the first draft of her book, she wrote in her diary:

‘I have been feverishly writing for 10 days. I have more or less finished writing the first draft. All that had been bottled up in my mind is now out, and I feel a great weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I feel that I could die without regret. I'm so grateful for the health of my family and body.’

This is quite a powerful diary entry. Do you think this indicates that writing was her ikigai, Kei?

Kei: More certainly. I think that's her way of expressing what was coming to her mind. She has such an intricate mind, I think. To go into the details of ikigai in such a very expansive, in terms of the topic coverage. And I believe that this book only covers a portion of what she was planning to share.

Nick: But you kind of feel the excitement from this quote, and how satisfied she is. And as we know, from the previous episode, she had all these health problems. So I guess at the time of writing the book, she must have felt she was in good health.

So with the title, let's touch on it. In Japanese, tsuite means, about, concerning, as to, regarding. So a literal translation of her book title would be ‘About Ikigai’ or ‘On Ikigai.’ How do you think the title of the book would be translated today?

Kei: I think the title is quite effective even today. We both know, we've read a number of her publications, and it kind of represents her style of writing and the position she takes in in a dialogue that she has with the readers.

It conveys the notion that this author wants to keep the interpretation to be kept open or up to us. And also the ‘About Ikigai’, it kind of tickles your mind, right? It's like, what about ikigai? So, I think there's shortness to the point, and openness for interpretation. That's something quite effective even today.

Intricate Process of Writing a Book

Nick and Kei delve into the arduous journey that Kamiya likely undertook to complete her book Ikigai-ni-tsuite, as evidenced by the impressive references she included.

It took Kamiya seven years before she published her book

Nick: When I first started reading this book. I mean, I hadn't read Japanese for a long time. So it did require a lot of relearning. I've got lots of notes. And I'm sort of still working through this, I managed to get an audiobook version as well, which really helped. But when did you first read this book? And how has it impacted you?

Kei: So I read the book for the first time, just the past year. So that makes you the senpai. You've come to it and referencing to it for much longer than I have. And it was an eye-opening moment. Because I've read other books done by the Western authors on ikigai, but here it is, 50 or more years ago, a researcher by the name of Mieko Kamiya has written a book simply titled, About Ikigai.

And the depth and the breadth of the topic coverage was just burn on, there’s nothing else out there.

Nick: I mean, for me, reading her was a real challenge, but also all the references to other researchers, or poets, or artists, or psychologists or psychiatrists or philosophers, I was like, how does she know all this information? Like, she must have read so much back then.

Obviously, she didn't have access to something like the internet. And I just started looking up all these French, German, and Japanese names, trying to find out who was she referring to.

Kei: So she must have had this stack of books, probably in her reach. Plus, through her connections and network, she must have had people or library systems that she had access to, that she can lay her hands on all these books and publications. I didn't count, but they're literally probably hundreds of books and things that she is citing.

Nick: Yeah, I was gonna say her citations are quite extensive. But clearly writing was something she loved, she also kept a diary, and she wrote other books. But this was her first book, and perhaps the most impactful. And in the conclusion of the book, Kamiya wrote that it took her around seven years to finish the book. Do you want to touch on that?

Kei: I couldn't believe it, too. She also mentions that the amount of materials she had written to publish this book was about twice as much as the book itself. So it must have been such a long arduous process for her to make sure that whichever topic she would like to highlight, and maybe leave out.

So that process must have taken quite a long time. And she also mentioned that there's a very significant gap time, from the time that she had the materials kind of put together or come together, you have to pause for like a couple of years, then finally got back to it and carried it through the finish line.

There must have been some other life situations that may have been impacting, but the process that she has gone through, I can appreciate. It's so clear that the she's looked at, I think each of the topics from at least two if not three different angles. And probably chose the one that felt the best or right for her, and then published it.

Questions to Ponder During Hard Times

In her book, Kamiya mentions two questions people can ask themselves during tough times to feel more ikigai in their lives. However, Kei believes that asking those specific questions is not essential today. Instead, simply spending some time, especially in the morning, contemplating what gives us ikigai can be enough to help us get through the day.

What makes us feel that life is worth living?

Nick: So let's move on to the introduction in her book. So in the introduction of her book, Kamiya presents the theme that there is suffering with people all over the world, and people who sort of wake up dreading the thought, and act of just waking up every morning—doesn't sound too good.

And then she prompts the reader with two questions to consider: what makes us feel that life is worth living each and every day? And how do we find a new ikigai if we have lost our reason to live? So that's quite a powerful opening to say, look, millions of people are waking up, dreading just the thought of waking up and facing each day.

And then these two questions of what makes us feel that life is worth living each and every day and how do we find a new ikigai if we've lost our reason to live? Yeah, I remember first reading the book and sort of translating and working out those two questions. I thought, wow, these are profound sort of significant questions. Do you think Japanese contemplate these questions when they think of ikigai?

Kei: Probably not. Generally speaking, in today's Japan, I mean, much as the rest of the world. It's important to also highlight the timeframe when Mieko Kamiya was asking this question was the mid-1900s. And after the war, economy is growing, especially in Japan, things are getting busy.

I mean, we have a number of ups and downs, but with all the technology and other advancements that we made, we are still in a same situation. Or, in some cases, we may be in worse situations when it comes to this point. Like, when you wake up, ‘what is the first thing you do’ is the question.

So we already touched on some people having that, you know, addicted to devices, but if you go reach out for your smartphone and start checking for the what kind of notifications you received, the previous night, while you're sleeping, I don't think you will have the mindset to ask these questions.

So the only people who ask these questions regardless of them being Japanese or where they are, other people who were able to develop that habit, maybe having the morning rituals to have somewhat of a meditation session, or stay away from those devices.

In my case, I try to prepare my coffee. And as I prepare it, you know, preparing the coffee doesn't take much effort for me. But then I spend that time thinking, what do I need to accomplish today? And how does that relate to my ikigai? Or how does that kind of align to what I'm trying to accomplish in the future? And even then, I don't do that every day.

Nick: Yeah, that's really important to make that time for ourselves, either in the morning or evening, or, ideally, both times of the day to think that I have another day to do something. But we seem to live on automatic, and technology's everywhere. I don't think it's just young people who go to bed with their phones. Everyone now does this.

Kei: I think so, too. Yeah.

Nick: That’s certainly not healthy.

Kei: The problem is, the phone also act as a lot of people's alarm clock nowadays. So you have to reach to it to stop it. But now, you have to fight against your urge to look at the screen and start checking the push notifications.

The Concept of Ikigai as Defined by Mieko Kamiya

Nick and Kei explain Mieko Kamiya's definition of ikigai as comprising two elements: the sources of ikigai and the feeling of ikigai.

Two-part definition of ikigai

Nick: Reading her book was a real challenge but very eye-opening. For me, this big distinction came with her definition of ikigai, and how she tied it to ikigai-kan. So she offers a two-part definition. I think it's her most recognized contribution to ikigai literature. So let's have a look at how she defined it, she wrote:

“There are two ways of using the word ikigai. When someone says ‘this child is my ikigai,’ it refers to the source or target of ikigai, and when one feels ikigai as a state of mind. The latter of these is close to what Frankl calls ‘sense of meaning.’ Here, I will tentatively call it ‘ikigai-kan’ to distinguish it from the former ‘ikigai.’”

Probably reading that or listening to that, it's a little bit complicated. What's the word? Katai, it's a little bit hard to process. But she's saying you have sources of meaning in your life or sources of ikigai in your life; experiences, people, relationships, dreams, hobbies, and even memories that make your life worth living.

And then ikigai-kan represents the emotions and feelings that these sources provide you to make you feel that life is worth living. And so I think what I understood is, according to Kamiya, the power of ikigai lies in the positive and satisfying emotions that result from being able to identify your ikigai sources.

And subsequently, you experience a deep and genuine sense of meaning associated with your life experience. So that was a big realization for me, like the first in the book: there's ikigai and ikigai-kan, and ikigai is something you feel. So did you know this intuitively, before even reading the book?

Kei: I’d like to say yes, but the moment when I read the book, and that section, or the opening segment, it crystallized or confirmed. Because even before reading the book, I was already going in the angle that I was telling my circle of friends and network that ikigai is not a destination or this goal. It's something we feel.

And I was saying it without getting any confirmation from anybody at that point. But here she was, and I said, I got hooked. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Nick: What does your family? So obviously, probably your family now you've got this interest in ikigai, you're researching it, you're studying it, you're producing content on it? Have you shared it with your mother and your wife and your daughters? And if you have, what are their sort of reaction?

Kei: So I know my daughters and my wife follows the content time to time. My mother? No, she would. But then, of course, she's of the age that she doesn't necessarily want to get on internet, or learn how to use, you know, our special mobile phones in Japan for the aged folks that has internet connectivity, but she's never used that part.

But I kind of weave in, in my conversations with her while I stay with her to see how much of this ikigai perspective is with people who really, well, growing up around the same time with Mieko Kamiya. Because I kind of want to know these differences in perspectives.

Nick: It would be helpful, that's something maybe we could explore.

Kei: Yeah, so maybe we may find opportunities to find some retirees and other folks who may be willing to talk to us, Nick, and maybe have a conversation.

Nick: Yeah, I'd like to do that because I do remember reading one quote, that for younger people, ikigai is more associated to passion, and as you get older, it's more associated to this sort of internal continuous sense of calmness. And that sort of makes sense.

I think when we're young, we're ambitious, we want to do things and change things within ourselves or around us, maybe even the world. Then as we get older, we kind of realize, it's not just these bursts of excitement and passion—having this grounded sense of calmness, and this continuous sense of life satisfaction makes life feel worth living.

Kei: But then that calmness may come from the retirees or people who may have accomplished something in their previous part of their life. So if people feel that they haven't had the chance to do so, may still have this fire in their mind or the willpower to accomplish something.

And that will come through as a passion, I think, into the old age. I've known friends like that. And also, I've seen people like that, too.

Ikigai: The Feeling That Makes Life Worthwhile

Nick and Kei highlight that having ikigai doesn't mean a life free of struggles, as shown by Mieko Kamiya's experience. Despite writing being her ikigai, Kamiya faced ups and downs while working on her book. Nonetheless, she still felt a deep sense of ikigai through the process of writing.

Ikigai is the powerful emotions that make life worth living

Nick: Let's go back to Kamiya's work, and when she began writing her book, she wrote in her diary on the 14th of February 1960, the following:

“I've been writing all day, (Ikigai-ni-Tsuite). Still, I am not making much progress. I've been thinking and writing a lot. Sometimes I am troubled by self-loathing. I am so bored. I wonder if it's worth it… I can't catch a break these days.”

And I was really shocked when I stumbled upon this diary entry. Actually, my wife found it for me. And I was like, is that right? So she struggled with writing at times. So this book must have been a challenge for her, too.

I think this reveals the existential nature of ikigai: that just because something is meaningful, doesn't mean it's going to be easy. In her case, writing a book. So that's another important point. Ikigai might push you, maybe what we've just touched on, to self-actualize at times, to challenge yourself, and it won't always be easy. What are your thoughts on that?

Kei: She does say like, I'm so bored, but at the same time, if I can kind of connect the timeline on this, she had already collected the materials about this book. So I think she's been rereading those materials, and other works are probably hers. And reading those materials that she's already written is probably impacting her morale a bit. It's like, I already wrote this, what am I gonna do with this?

And that's why I really appreciate this book, because you can kind of tell or feel that the number of iterations she may have gone through to come up with each of the sections based on again, a lot of other ideas and materials that she's kept.

And that may be kind of hidden in this diary entry. Because we sometimes get bored when we have to review our own work, like, I know this, I've done it. But then she's trying to create something that she's so used to seeing, but then she has to put it together in a shape that others can appreciate.

Nick: I think writing a book is a real challenge when you get to the editing stage, and you have to decide what to keep. You realize this area and this section needs more work. And the progress can just go slow, and then you begin to doubt and you've spent all this time writing a book, and then you're at this point, where you think is it worth it?

Like, what I've written doesn't even make sense—you have all these doubts. So I can imagine she went through these periods of boredom or frustration. I mean, I kind of have this magical perception of it. But at the end of the day, she was a real human being. So she must have had these moments where she got frustrated, she had her ups and downs.

Kei: And now we know that she may have been thinking in French first tried and tried to translate it in Japanese.

Nick: Yes, so she had all these ups and downs in her diary entries. But despite these struggles, perhaps more than anything in her life, writing gave Kamiya her strongest experience of ikigai-kan. And there's another quote from her diary that kind of backs this up. So this is more than a year longer, like, a year and a half longer, September 11, 1961, she wrote:

“I could almost say that I had been living just to write this book. What surprise, joy and awe I felt as I gradually came to discover that. I had never even really imagined the possibility that the meaning of my life would be some day gradually revealed to me in this way.”

So obviously, she's having a really good day here. She's really feeling this incredible sense of life satisfaction, life-meaning from writing this book. So I think her diary entries are a good reminder that ikigai is all about the powerful emotions that make life feel worth living. And, obviously, ikigai-kan is what we want to experience.

For the full podcast conversation, go to:

All Things Ikigai with Kei Tsuda

The Life and Legacy of Mieko Kamiya with Kei Tsuda

Exploring Mieko Kamiya’s Contributions to Ikigai Literature with Kei Tsuda