Kiku Day on Mindful Shakuhachi Playing

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Shakuhachi: What is it?

The shakuhachi is a traditional Japanese bamboo flute that has been used for centuries in various forms of Japanese music. Shakuhachi player, Kiku, explains the origin of this fascinating instrument.

A traditional Japanese instrument

Nick: Let's move on to the topic of this episode, and it's about this beautiful instrument, the shakuhachi. But maybe a lot of my audience don't really know what it is. So what is shakuhachi? And what is the meaning of the name?

Kiku: The shakuhachi, the name means 1.8. So shaku is one unit of measurement. It's very often translated as foot. I don't know if that's a good translation. But anyway, it's a unit of measurement, and so 1.8 hachi.

And that is the length, the standard length of the shakuhachi, and that's why it got the name. It's had this name for a very long time, because it already had this name when it was imported from China.

Well, it's more complicated than that. But it used to be a part of a Chinese court ensemble, and it was a Tang Dynasty kind of ensemble and music that Japan imported from Korea in the eighth century.

And at that time, in the eighth century, it was already outdated in China, but it was still going on in Korea. And this ensemble and music is still going on as a court music in Japan, gagaku. But it doesn't exist in Korea anymore.

So the shakuhachi was part of that, but it looked very, very different, it was much smaller, much thinner, and had six holes. Today, it's made out of Japanese bamboo. So it's a bamboo flute. And it's got five holes, so it plays more Japanese scale modality.

Nick: Yeah, when I first started to develop an interest in it, I was kind of surprised by the name, because the name’s this exotic sounding name. But then I thought that it’s basically 1.8: hachi means eight. I also think that’s unusual. So I had this preconceived idea that it meant something very special.

Kiku: Something very deep.

Nick: Yeah.

Music as a Mirror of Your Emotions

Music not only serves as a medium for creative expression but also as a powerful tool for reflecting one's emotional state. Kiku reveals how she perceives the shakuhachi as a means of conveying her innermost feelings and emotions through its soul-stirring melodies.

Conveying one's emotions through music

Kiku: The shakuhachi has a timbre that when you play in a certain position, you've got different head positions, you always have some kind of windy sound to it. So it's always a limited area, a little bit noisy in some ways. You have to accept that as a part of the shakuhachi timbre.

And then you can also change your head position, the way of blowing, you change the shape of your mouth, and then you have very, very clean, pure sounds, musical sound, and you can go completely into what we would easily say noise, non-musical sounds. And so you made the spectrum of sounds very broad.

Nick: When I practise, I have this belief that I'm never ever going to play the same sound again. There's this, it's so subtle, like slight movement, or the position on my lip, or my breath, or my posture seems to impact the sound. And so sometimes I'll pick it up, and I think I've really got a nice tone. And then I'll try again, and then I'll lose it.

Kiku: Definitely. Of course, with training, you get better at controlling that. However, I find the shakuhachi to be such a mirror of your state of being. So if I am not feeling good myself, the sound's never going to be great.

So it really reflects you. I find it hard to use as a means of comforting myself. You know, you can of course feel better because you're doing something that you love. But sometimes you can hear the sound that you're not feeling well.

Nick: It's like the shakuhachi knows. It knows you're not in a good mood, so maybe you should do something else.

Shakuhachi as an Instrument for Meditation

The shakuhachi is a traditional bamboo instrument that holds a special place in Zen Buddhism, often used for meditation purposes. Fascinated by its potential as a meditative tool, Kiku delved into the subject with the aim of exploring how one can meditate with the help of this instrument.

Shakuhachi playing and meditation

Nick: So let's talk about your paper, "Mindful playing: A practice research investigation into shakuhachi playing and meditation." And I remember one day, I thought, I wonder if there's a research paper on shakuhachi.

And I thought there's probably not, but I put it in either Google Scholar or ResearchGate, and I was shocked to find your paper. I was like, wow! I thought this was going to be great. And so I reached out to you. It's quite a read.

And you've put a lot of effort and a lot of research and all these citations into this paper. So what motivated you to write this paper?

Kiku: So the shakuhachi has this ambiguous, Zen Buddhist background. And in Japan, it's not that it takes up a lot of space, this background. So people in Japan, mostly don't get to the shakuhachi through Zen Buddhism or these kinds of things.

It's part of the traditional musical instruments in Japan. Of course, there is a whole, not as shiny like the mainstream shakuhachi that's all about the music. And you can be educated as a shakuhachi player at the Conservatory, and things like that.

And that's a very musical approach -- an artistic musical approach. And of course there is in Japan this other approach that is a little bit more subdued, the Buddhist approach. But a lot of non-Japanese shakuhachi players are very interested in the Zen Buddhist side and also meditation.

And I've done a lot of interviews with non-Japanese players, and quite a few of them will say that they play shakuhachi as a means of meditation: I came to it because I wanted to meditate and also to look at the shakuhachi playing as meditation and connects it to the Komuso monks.

We don't exactly know if they thought about it as meditation, but part of this Komuso monk's thing was also, of course, self-cultivation. But it's so complex, let's not go into that, because then we'll talk about that the rest of the time.

It will be a five-hour podcast. But because of this interest, I myself didn't come to the shakuhachi with the interest of Zen Buddhism or meditation. I came to shakuhachi purely because of the sound.

But as I learned, and Okuda of course, spoke quite a bit about Zen Buddhism, there is a great consciousness that it was a Zen Buddhist instrument. So I began to be interested in it. And very differently, apart from the shakuhachi, I also got into meditation.

And in the beginning, I didn't connect to it at all. And then very naturally, I suppose, in a way, because the shakuhachi has this part of history, I wanted to explore.

And I found out that it's actually not that easy. So I wanted to explore. If so many people are interested in the shakuhachi because of the meditation part of it, how do you actually meditate? So I was very much interested in that. What do you do to meditate while playing an instrument?

Distinction Between Flow and Meditation

Kiku recounts a transformative experience where she became fully absorbed in her performance, reaching a state of flow. Through this experience, she gained a profound understanding of the subtle distinctions between being in a state of flow and a meditative state.

Being in a flow state

Nick: Something that jumped out at me on your paper was, you wrote on the difference between flow and meditation. And maybe some people do perceive flow like a meditative state, because you have this experience of loss of time and you're deeply focused in it, it feels right or it feels good. But there is a difference.

And you share this experience of performing at St. John's Smith Square in London, which apparently is quite a venue to play at. And so you documented this experience, and I think it may articulate the difference, at least for you, between flow and meditation. So would you like to share that experience and what you learned from it?

Kiku: Yes. So let me say that in meditation, the awareness is always there, you don't lose yourself. Once you're lost, you're lost in your experience, and the awareness is no longer there.

So what happened in St. John's Smith Square is that I got onto stage and was gonna play a piece that I love and feel comfortable with, but still is enough of a challenge. And I played it, and I got into this flow state. Normally, it will be just a flow state, that's great to be in as a musician.

It's just flowing out of you, you don't have to think, it's just there. And, of course, it's a piece that I have memorised, I don't have to read, I can just go into myself and it just flows out. It feels great, you know.

But for some reason that day, and this state, I think all musicians know when performing, but that day, there was suddenly a type of awareness that popped up. And I realised I was in this flow state. I also realised while it was going on, I didn't know where in the music I was.

I was just immersed in this flow state, it didn't matter because it was just flowing. And I wouldn't be worried about it. But because I had this sudden strange awareness, this awareness made me become really worried that I wouldn't know what note I should play next.

So what if it stopped? So I tried to find out where I was; I listened to myself playing as it was still flowing. It's kind of strange, I don't know how long this lasted, I experienced it very long. I tried to find different strategies, I played this and this note, so it must be this that comes later.

No, it wasn't that. So it must be there. And at some point, I realised I had to stop worrying, because otherwise I will stop the flow. And maybe I wouldn't know where it was.

So I kind of let go of it. And then the next time I was aware of it, I was just in a normal state of being: out of the flow, but still playing because I could play this piece. And so I managed to get through the piece without stopping that I was afraid of.

But it made me really think, what is this flow state I've completely forgotten myself? And in meditation, it is not about forgetting yourself, because you're immersed in the experience. And experience is one thing that takes you away from meditation itself.

So that's when I really started wondering: what happens and what is meditation in music? We say it so easily. But what is it then? And that's when I kind of embarked into trying to find out, at least for myself.

Nick: It almost sounds like it was an out of body experience or this heightened awareness or this intense observer. But you're aware of your awareness. But it must have been significant because it sounds like you hadn't had that experience before.

Kiku: No, I haven't had it like that. Right now it feels like once in a lifetime, it's actually 10 years ago, it was in 2013. No, it must be more, it must have been like 2008. And I haven't had exactly that since.

Luckily, because it wasn't particularly pleasant, then I would prefer either to be just in flow state and let it flow. Or in another awareness kind of state. The two combined were very weird.

Nick: It does sound weird, because it sounds like you are in this heightened, anxious state. You were worried while you were in flow.

Kiku: I got into an anxious state. It was in the beginning. In the beginning, when it just started. It just came like that. It was like, oh, my God, it's just flowing out of me. I have no idea where in the music I am. It's just flowing. How nice is that? But then, it started.

Nick: I think your mind started talking to you.

Kiku: Yes. But the interesting thing was I didn't stop the flow, you know, which I think normally, when you get these kinds of thoughts, you would actually come out of your flow state. But it didn't at that point.

Nick: And you were very familiar with that piece, it sounds like?  So it is fascinating, all these concepts like flow and meditation and studying ikigai has made me realise I really need to understand these concepts. And so flow is a good example.

I think everyone has this idea that flow is something that you can ease into. And sometimes I think you can, but it's defined by having a certain skill set to meet a certain challenge. So it shouldn't be too easy.

And it shouldn't be too hard. So I think the same is for meditation, we have some idea of it, but some people think it's floating into bliss, where you described it as, it's almost like work, like it is hard to try to meditate.

For the full podcast conversation, go to: The Mindful Playing of the Shakuhachi with Kiku Day