The Intersection of Ikigai and Positive Psychology: Insights from Sue Langley

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What Led Me to Positive Psychology

Sue reveals the journey that propelled her into the realm of positive psychology, ultimately guiding her to not only study it but also share her knowledge by teaching others.

Teaching people about emotions

Nick: So I'll just touch on a little bit more about you. So you are the Academic Director of the Langley group. And you offer the world's first government accredited qualification in positive psychology and well-being. And this is how we connected. I'm one of your students.

And as I just mentioned, I was part of this wonderful cohort, and we spent six days together. I think it was life changing for all of us. So yeah, it was such a wonderful experience. So you must really love your work.

Sue: I do love my work. I'm very lucky, I get to meet amazing people like yourself from all walks of life, who really are just wanting to be the best they can be and learn about [positive psychology] and emotions and neuroscience. So I love what I do, and it plays to my strengths. So I'm very lucky.

Nick: Certainly does. I witnessed your strengths and flow. I actually did some homework over the weekend, and I wrote and read a gratitude letter to a very dear friend. So that was quite an experience.

Sue: I’m looking forward to hearing all about that.

Nick: Well, let's begin with your interest in positive psychology, when did that began and what attracted you to study it and then obviously go on to teach it to others?

Sue: It's interesting. Like many people, I found myself in a job that I enjoyed, and I was good at. And so I was asked or invited to be the manager, if you like, of that team. And I'm sure, many people like me, you're a good individual contributor, and then someone says, put you in a leadership role, and you have no idea what you're doing.

Because I'd been good at what I did. And I wasn't necessarily good at being a leader, and I had no training. So I took it upon myself to try and learn lots of things about psychology, the human behavior, those sorts of things, just from a general perspective. And I was lucky enough to sort of learn a few things about emotions, etc., from my my reading, and I hopefully became a better leader because of it.

But what I actually did is within my organization, we were told we were front facing, so customer facing. And each of us were told in our offices, we could close for half a day a month for training for our team. And I was the only one of nine offices that did that as a leader. So I literally closed the office one day a month. And I would teach people what I'd learned.

So I teach them about self-confidence, and I teach them about self-awareness and self-efficacy and a whole bunch of things. Before I knew it was sort of an area of study. And what I noticed, interestingly, is our profits doubled two years in a row. And I was really impressed with my team, because I never taught them customer service, I never taught them sales, I just taught them about how to be the better version of them.

And so when I then wanted to learn a little bit more, and I moved to Australia, and I wanted to start my own business, I thought I really want to teach people about emotions. So by that stage, I was learning about the science of emotions, from anything I could get my hands on.

I did a psychology degree, and I learned a little bit about [positive psychology]. And I actually wanted to do a master's in positive psychology. But at the time, I'd only just started my own business, it would have cost me over $100,000 to fly back and forth to the states.

So I downloaded the reading list, and I read everything. And I sort of started really that way. And then I did my Master's in neuroscience of leadership a couple of years later. So for me, I've always wanted to put those sort of three things together: the science of emotions, the science of the brain and the nervous system and neurology etc. And then really looking at positive psychology and well-being and how do we get the best out of each other and out of ourselves.

And putting those three together really worked for me from a business perspective. And I think it works for our clients because if you put the neuroscience behind it, people get it. If you touch on the science of emotions, and really what the science tells us, it helps people understand them a lot better than just the sort of superficial that we sometimes sort of floats around.

So, yeah, that was sort of my journey. And I keep learning all day every day and read research papers, and I'm a bit of very geeky when it comes to reading.

Understanding Positive Psychology

Positive psychology is the scientific study of how people can thrive and be happy. Sue thinks that many things, like mindfulness, nutrition, neurobiology, microbes, and genetics, are part of positive psychology. It's all about understanding what makes people flourish.

The scientific study of human flourishing

Nick: I think it would be helpful to try and define positive psychology. So when you're asked what's positive psychology, what's your go-to answer?

Sue: My go-to answer is probably twofold. One is the definition, which is the scientific study of human flourishing. If you want to put it in very basic terms, it's the scientific study of human flourishing, whether it's individuals, teams or organizations. That's the sort of the definition.

I suppose the way I think of it is, there are so many areas now under the umbrella of positive psychology. If as long as they're all in the pursuit, I suppose, of how do we be the best we can be, Those sorts of things are covered.

So whether it's mindfulness or whether it's, now, nutrition has been linked in or exercise or from a neurobiology perspective, microbial perspective, genetics, there are many things that's now being encompassed.

But basically, it all comes back to the scientific study of human flourishing. What is it that makes one human being flourish over another? Or one team work more effectively than another? I always like to come back to what the science tells me, and as I say, at a high level is the scientific study of human flourishing.

How we go about it could be through many means, like the psychological well-being of meaning and fulfillment, and the values alignment, as well as the joy of subjective well-being of am I happy today? And am I enjoying life and having more positive emotions in the mix and many other areas in between.

Exploring the Connection Between Positive Psychology and Ikigai

Nick and Sue delve into the correlation between positive psychology and ikigai, underscoring the significance of cultivating positive emotions in the process.

Paying attention to our emotions

Nick: So your diploma has five main modules: emotion, engagement, meaning, relationships, and goals. And you bring many theories of positive psychology together in each of those modules, way too many to even attempt to mention on this podcast, but I thought we could touch on each of them, and maybe share a little and see if they relate to ikigai.

So the first one is emotion, and I guess that's more specifically positive emotion. And I'd like to quote you: ‘The quality of your life is directly related to the quality of your emotions.’ So would you like to expand on that and just share what you'd like to share on that?

Sue: I think it's interesting. So I love the science of emotions. And I have to say, that's probably where I first started really understanding the science of emotions, from a physiological perspective, a brain-based perspective, the theories, the universal elements, the individual fingerprints that people bring to their emotions. And I think that's really fascinating.

I absolutely believe that the quality of your life is directly related to the quality of your emotions. Because if I am having a bad day, because I'm grumpy, or I'm stressed, or I'm anxious, or whatever, it's going to affect the quality of my life, the quality of my relationships, the quality of my communication, all sorts of things.

So for me, although we focus on positive emotions, from a positive psychology perspective, you know when we talked about that, and we spent the time on that, we also investigated many emotions, so the whole range of emotions, about what's the importance of emotions, and what are they there for.

And you will know and I always use this sort of quote: ‘emotions are data’, the information, they're trying to tell us something. And I think that's, again, really important. If I'm feeling anxious, anxiety is an emotion, it's just data, it's information, it's trying to tell me something. If I ignore that data, I'm probably going to have trouble with anxiety.

But if I can learn from that data, what's it trying to tell me and manage and handle that data, then I'm probably not going to have challenges. So for me managing your emotions day-to-day, and I don't mean suppressing or controlling.

I mean, genuinely managing your emotions, experiencing those emotions, noticing them, understanding them, can be so helpful for us just to get through the day-to-day of why do I feel nervous right now? Why do I feel anxious right now? Why do I feel excited right now? What's going on for me?

And knowing what emotion is appropriate in which situation and what I need to do to harness those emotions to help me, I think that's such a powerful thing. And I noticed that we kind of teach it in kindergarten or something, you know, the smiley face, the angry face, the happy face, or whatever.

And then we kind of forget about it and wonder why human beings have well-being issues, or mental health issues, or various other issues, because we don't deal with those emotions.

Nick: It is fascinating, because I'm in the middle of doing the mood meter homework, and checking in at least, you know, four times a day on my mood, my feelings, and my emotions. And you know, it's very helpful, because it's asking, what are you doing? Are you alone or with someone? Your environment?

And then prompting you, what do you think is making you feel this way, and you see these patterns after a while. And yeah, it's gonna be very helpful data, as you said. I imagine in the future, I'll be able to think, well, I'm going to be doing this activity and looks like I find it makes me anxious, so at least I'll be aware of that. And then I can use some of this pipe positive psychology to handle those future situations.

And then if I find myself always happy and cheerful around people, well, I know what to do to become happy and cheerful, I go and catch up with friends or, you know, meet new people.

Sue: I think that's the powerful thing about that. And I have to admit, I do that exercise on myself, at least once a year, sometimes more where I measure my mood for a couple of weeks, and I see what happens.

And I think it's so valuable because sometimes we just go through life, not actually paying attention to the things that brings us moments of joy or moments of gratitude or moments of anxiety. And to your point, when you notice patterns is when it gets really interesting. It's like well, I could just stop doing that and put myself in those situations or I can't stop doing that. So I've got to figure out how to manage those situations.

Nick: Yeah, very helpful, and it's sort of, I think it also highlights the importance of your being obviously aware or mindful, which we'll touch on in a minute. But I wanted to tie in ikigai, because ikigai was defined by this wonderful lady I told you about who I like to refer to as the Mother of Ikigai.

And she defined it, you have your ikigai sources, and then you have ikigai-kan, and kan is perception, awareness, or feeling. And she made this point that ikigai is something you feel—it's what makes you feel that life is worth living.

And yeah, this emphasis on feeling rather than achieving or being successful, or all these things, we tend to value or we're sort of encouraged to value in society, we sort of don't look at our emotions enough. And if we do, it's not always sort of encouraged in a positive way. Like, you're emotional.

Sue: It’s interesting you say that, because many organizations measure engagement. And sometimes, I often do a keynote on this. It's called basically, you can't have engagement without emotion. Because if you think about it, people measure engagement, but they don't realize the value of emotion, but you can't possibly be engaged with a feeling. I feel engaged.

Well, there's emotion. And to your point, absolutely, if we don't understand those sources of emotions, and the feeling that we experienced, yes, we can keep achieving. But if you're not actually enjoying the journey, if you're not leveraging various things that bring you those moments of joy, sometimes, and we see this all the time with people in the media, for instance, that achieve really amazing things and earn loads of money, etc. And then we see their well-being just falling apart. Because if we're not paying attention to the feelings, what's the point in achieving those things?

Flowing into Ikigai: The Symbiosis of Purpose and Flow State

Nick and Sue explore the connection between experiencing a state of flow and cultivating a heightened sense of ikigai.

Being highly engaged in what you do

Nick: Interestingly, one of the first papers I've found on ikigai when I was looking online, I think it was ResearchGate, was related to flow. And it was such a jagged field, complicated piece, I put it aside for a couple of years and then I thought, oh, I should get back on this paper.

It basically wanted to see if ikigai, the feeling of ikigai increased in the flow state. And what they found was there was this connection between flow, ikigai, and sense of coherence, and it was on Tai Chi practitioners.

Basically, they found that the longer these people practice Tai Chi, and the more engaged they were with flow, obviously, the more they felt ikigai. And then they also experienced a sense of coherence and that idea of comprehensibility, manageability, and meaning making of an activity.

Because Tai Chi is obviously quite difficult as you get more advanced, or the subtle movements. So in short, you experience ikigai when you're in flow, but also you experience a sense of life satisfaction after the flow state and you realize, that was awesome, that was very satisfying.

So yeah, ikigai sort of popped up there as well. So that's a module I teach in my own program, based on this paper, so bringing evidence to all these concepts is always exciting.

Sue: What you've just done there, which is so lovely, is help understand that these things are all related. So to your point, if it's coherent, to me, I might increase my sense of meaning. If I'm using my strengths, I might increase my sense of engagement and my connection to what I'm doing. But also, then I feel good.

So I feel good about the fact that I've made a difference, or I've done something meaningful, or I've learned something, or I've grown. So there's a wonderful cohesiveness, I suppose around all of these theories in the way they come together within us as a person.

Nick: Now, I'm going to contradict what we've just talked about, because you always seem in flow. When you're talking, you're very vibrant and happy. And during our six days, you were just awesome, amazing facilitator, you didn't need notes, and everything you could answer. And when you couldn't answer, you say I don’t know but it might mean this.

You seem to be maybe what we could in this kind of low level of flow all the time you really love your work, you're engaged. So when do you actually reach that strict? Let’s call it that strict definition of when your skill level meets a certain challenge where you engage in flow, and does it happen often?

Sue: It's a really good question. I think I'm highly engaged in what I do. So you're absolutely right, I am lucky that I get to use my strengths a lot of the time. Well, when I say lucky, I'm also well aware, I've made some decisions to make that happen as well.

So I do get very engaged in what I do, I love what I do, I get energized by what I do. The moment of flow, to your point, if we stick strictly to those eight components, it absolutely does still happen. And it usually happens when I stretch myself, where I push myself in a certain way. And I'll give you an example.

So each year for the last however many years, I have spoken often about happiness causes conference. And I have to admit, I did freak out the organizer once. I think it was about year two or three, when I said to her, when I speak about happiness causes conference, I have made a decision that I am only ever going to do something I've never done before and I've not prepared for.

And to the first time I did it, it was definitely a bit anxiety provoking. But since then, there are the moments I'm in flow. I had one example when I was in Iceland, last year at the European positive psych conference, I only finished the slides at 8 am, I didn't have them printed out because I didn't have a printer. I basically scan them on my laptop, and then I got on stage at nine o'clock.

And I just thought to myself, okay, whatever slide comes up, I'm just gonna go. And I have to admit, and there's a picture of me as I come off stage, and that's the moment where I came out of flow. And my colleague captured it and you can see by my face that I’m like ‘nailed it.’

But I literally couldn't remember the previous 58 minutes. I was so absorbed. So to your point, because I love what I do. And for a lot of things that I do, I've done them for many years and I've learned more, I tweak things, I stretch things, but I always find little scenarios where I push myself a little bit further every so often that makes me go ‘that was a moment of flow.’ It doesn't always happen but I try and create moments where it can.

Nick: I like this strategy, I might implement it.

Forgiveness in the Context of Positive Psychology

Connections with others play a vital role in our lives, and Sue underscores the significance of forgiveness within these relationships. Forgiveness, in her view, doesn't entail erasing the memory of unfavorable events; rather, it involves letting go of the anger and resentment associated with those experiences.

Forgiveness comes around with gratitude

Nick: Perhaps one of the most challenging activities in the six day intensive was related to forgiveness. And this is obviously related to relationships. This can be very hard to practice. It's sometimes hard for us to let go if we've felt were wronged or we ruminate, we want revenge sometimes. So let's get clarity on what forgiveness is in the context of positive psychology. Why is it beneficial to practice it?

Sue: I think I'll flip your questions around first, why it's beneficial is because relationships are so important to us. So if something happens, and I can't forgive, I may be cutting off a relationship that to your point could lead me into my 80s.

Because we're all going to mess up and say or do something that hurts another person at some point. So I think we need to get better at forgiveness. We're not perfect, we may have stuffed up, hopefully someone forgives us because we didn't really mean it. And hopefully, therefore, we can do the same for other people. So we know it's really important for those longer term relationships.

If we think about what it is, I think it's really important to understand what it is compared to what it isn't. It's not about forgetting. It's not about making what happened okay. But it's letting go of the anger and resentment that you feel about the wrong.

And this is again, what people misunderstand, forgiveness isn't me saying to you, Nick, I forgive you for whatever I believe you've done to me. It’s me going, I forgive Nick, I am over it, I am able to handle it. And I think that's the bit again, that people think it's about how do I get revenge? Or how do I tell you that what you've done is not okay, blah, blah, blah. It's actually not. It's basically me handling my emotions.

And I really love about the research here, Fred Luskin is a particular wonderful researcher, he's done great research around forgiveness. What he finds is often forgiveness comes around with gratitude. So gratitude is an essential part of forgiveness. Because it might be that I'm grateful for how I've grown because of that challenge.

It might be that I've been able to let go of whatever happened and move on. And I am grateful now for what happened because it taught me something. So the interesting thing is those two seem to be connected, which I think is quite fascinating.

For the full podcast conversation, go to: Ikigai & Positive Psychology: Bridging Purpose and Well-being