Exploring Zen Eating: A Conversation with Momoe

Momoe

Momoe discusses the importance of mindfulness in our eating habits, delving into the principles of Zen eating as a path to improved well-being in episodes 79 and 80 of the Ikigai Podcast.

Momoe is the author of Zen Eating: A Japanese Mindfulness Practice for Well-Being & True Fulfillment (Zen Eating: Sekai ga Mitometa Shiawase na Tabekata*Kasama Shoin, 2023) that introduces an accessible new meditation-based practice for supporting the well-being of busy people around the world.


*Watch the full playlist above.

Engaging in the Practice of Zen Eating

Sacrificing her well-being amidst an overload of work, Momoe unveils her journey of Zen discovery and its seamless integration into her eating routine, guiding her towards greater fulfillment in life.

Your mindset while eating is important

Nick: Would you like to share a little background and share your journey to becoming a Zen eating guide?

Momoe: Of course, so I am sharing how to eat now, which is like conscious eating. But to come here, I had a long journey. I have been meditating for 10 years based on Zazen meditation and other many types of meditation.

And I was born in the countryside of Japan, with mountain like North countryside of Japan and my grandparents have a mountain and surrounded by wild vegetables, wild plants. And without knowing, they have this connectedness, they have this connected life. I grew up in Tokyo, so I was always admiring them like how beautiful their life is.

But I'm having this urban life which I like. So I decided to work for a wellness department at a luxury resort hotel in Japan. And I was happy that I was able to have wellness moment with my clients, guests at that resort. But at the same time I was working too much and I got burned out, I had to quit my job because of my health condition.

That was challenging for me, I was working for wellness but I didn't have time to take care of my own wellness. Then I moved to India and decided to live in India for one and half year to two years. I learned traditional Indian medicine called ayurveda, and Indian nutrition—how to make balanced diet for your body, according to your body condition, your body type, which was fascinating.

And the reason that I started learning about this nutrition was that my mother overcame her chronic illness, which is called rheumatoid arthritis by changing her diet to healthier, vegetable-oriented or less artificial things.

So I realized that what you eat and health are so strongly related. So I thought that nutrition is something really important for me and for everyone. That's why I went into nutrition and healthy diet. But I realized that as I became more healthy diet geek, I realized that I was far from happy state, because I was so judgmental, like, I cannot eat this, and you should not eat this.

At that point, I realized that how to eat or your mindset while eating is as as important as what you eat. So I came back to this meditational approach which I started when I lost my father by a helicopter accident, at the age of 14, I was 14 years old.

So I discovered Zen and Zen helped me so much, so I integrated Zen and this eating, and I started sharing how to do it, how to practice it with people, with companies. So that's how I started Zen eating.

Experiencing Joy and Oneness in Zen

Momoe sees Zen Buddhism as all about joy and togetherness. Joy means feeling happy and content, especially when we focus on the present, whereas feeling connected brings happiness in our lives.

Experiencing a sense of oneness brings us happiness

Nick: I think we need to start with some foundation. And this is how you define Zen, and as you know, many Japanese words become misunderstood or appropriated in the West. I think Zen is maybe understood by some, but misunderstood, I think a lot of people use Zen as an adjective and saying, ‘this house is very Zen’ or something.

It’s probably a bit strange, they relate it to design or architecture or to aesthetic. So how do you define Zen?

Momoe: It's interesting that you mentioned like ‘this house is Zen.’ Yes, I often hear those perspective which I don't have any strong opinion about. But I may have different perspective, a different understanding from those teachings that you find in Zen temples or in Zen books.

I am a big fan of Zen because of two reasons: first is joy and the second is oneness. So joy and oneness is my answer, I define Zen Buddhism as joy and oneness. Joy means ultimate joy without condition, and Zen teaches you to know that you already have enough in your hands if you pay attention to what you have in your hands.

So this fulfillment or this contentment gives you this enoughness and joyful life. I realized, wow, today, being here is heaven. And this sense of joy, I learned from or I learned through Zen Buddhism and oneness. I found this beautiful explanation in the book written by D.T. Suzuki. Have you heard about him?

Nick: I think he introduced Zen to America?

Momoe: Yes. In 50s, he explained about oneness by using this metaphor, by using this explanation in Japanese: nature and self uses the same letter, and that letter shows the same meaning. In Japanese, myself is already a part of nature in the language. So jibun, shizen.

That sense of oneness, because we feel pain by experiencing separation, divided. We feel happiness by experiencing a sense of oneness. So if you bring back this connection with the nature or a part of nature, that you are part of nature, you're part of the cycle, then this sense of oneness will bring you ultimate blissfulness in your life. That's what I have learned from Zen Buddhism.

sees Zen Buddhism as all about joy and togetherness. Joy means feeling happy and content, especially when we focus on the present, whereas feeling connected brings happiness in our lives.

The Practice of Zen Eating

Momoe explains that Zen eating is a mindful practice from Japanese Zen Buddhism. It's about feeling connected to the planet, not just paying attention to what you eat, but feeling like you're part of something larger.

Zen eating involves mindful consumption of food

Nick: With that, let's talk about how you have applied Zen to eating. So what is Zen eating?

Momoe: Yes, Zen eating is the way you eat, it's mindful eating, but it's inspired by Japanese Zen Buddhism. And it goes beyond more than mindful eating. So ultimately, I'd love you to experience this connectivity that we were talking now, the sense of oneness with the planet.

So through eating one grain of rice, if you imagine where this rice came from, how many people were involved to your one bite, one meal. And so you may imagine soil, the sun, water, rain, air. And if you imagine the generations, you can trace back many generations.

This rice, one grain of rice, is the baby seed. And this baby had father and mother and that father and mother had father and mother. So you can trace back maybe 4.2 billion years old, because there's no gap in between. So connectivity in the dimension of space, and dimension of time, and it goes to future, forward as well.

So this sense of oneness that we are living in a cycle is really important, I think, to experience through Zen eating. In order to experience this oneness, I suggest you to open up your body first. So that's why I usually start when I offer workshops or the experience practicing Zen eating, I usually start with asking you to smell or touch with your hands.

So if you open your five senses, your body, our body is usually sleeping, and we don't pay much attention to our five senses or internal perception, which is like your stomach senses. So that's the gateway, opening up your body and bringing back the connection with your body will lead you to bring back the connection with the planet.

Embracing Playfulness in Eating

Immersing yourself entirely in the act of eating can be deeply relaxing, especially when you infuse it with a sense of playfulness. Momoe elaborates on her journey of embracing playful eating, emphasizing the importance of approaching each meal with a fresh perspective and a genuine curiosity about the foods she consumes.

Practicing eating with playfulness over accuracy

Nick: Most of us eat two or three times a day, we're often snacking, we're eating on the go. So it's something we do every day, but we don't optimize the experience, or we don't give the experience enough care and time.

So this is obviously what you're promoting, too. I think Suzuki said this, like when you eat, just eat. And when you do that, first there's some resistance with your mind, and you're jumping from all these thoughts and what you have to do and what happened yesterday or whatever.

But we practice, you can almost lose time in eating slowly. So it's not something serious is it? It's something almost relaxing, and you actually describe it to be playful, while eating, and to use fresh eyes.

So I think we should emphasize, it's not like you have to meditate while you're eating, and it's something serious, you describe it as something playful, so would you like to touch on that?

Momoe: Sure. Playfulness is really important as Zen practitioners or anyone. We tend to think things seriously, or too seriously, and I am a person who takes things seriously. I love meditation, I love any kind of mindful practices. I always find it really difficult to make it a habit.

So after doing some meditation course or something, I can do meditation every morning properly, sitting properly, maybe for one month, and then after a while I usually do this. I felt that oh, well, like I eat every day, twice or three times. And I can practice meditation through eating. It's something that I can do as low.

So I started eating with playfulness. With having fresh eyes, this structure is supposed like I'm drinking hot water, and you can be drinking this hot water as like your first time, so that you may be aware of many things through drinking just hot water temperature. Where this water came from—river, cloud, rain, and it goes back to the ocean. This water has this cycle, and I'm living in this cycle.

And I'm sensing it how wonderful that I have five senses, how wonderful that I don't have to command my internal organs to process it. Without me knowing it, my internal organ does everything that I need.

So what a miracle it is that you can be not knowing it. So those playfulness is really important than knowing accurately where this came from. You don't have to know maybe, you can, but you don't have to. So playfulness then accuracy.

Nick: Playfulness over accuracy. I see the wander in you, you're like oh, just imagining what was involved with this cup of water. How did it get here? And there is a cycle and there is a journey of that water, but it doesn't end with you, it still continues with you.

So we don't think about that at all, I don't, but you do. But maybe I'll start to think about that now after this discussion. And of course, as children we’re told don't play with your food. But I liked this idea of having almost like a playful mind. Oh, yeah, seeing things anew again, with your food and being slight in all of the food, how did it get to me?

So I guess that makes you more present and being present is very powerful. So would you say this practice has helped you be more present in other areas of your life?

Momoe: Totally, 100%.

Nick: Yeah, I'm sure it has.

Momoe: This is not one time practice, but it's a lifelong practice as we eat every day, till the end of our life. So this lifelong practice is helping me as a practitioner as one of the practitioners, I can apply the sense of wonder, or how miracle that this functions like this. So this sense of appreciation, nothing is granted. This kind of attitude is helping me to tune into joy and bliss on all front in my life.

The Benefits of Zen Eating

Momoe explores the multitude of advantages that Zen eating offers, highlighting its positive impacts on both our physical and mental well-being.

Zen eating aligns your mind, body, and spirit

Nick: That is obviously one of the benefits of Zen eating. So would you like to share other benefits of Zen eating?

Momoe: It is a good question. Yes, there are so many benefits. The easiest one is physical benefit, like people who come to me to practice Zen eating, some people have problem with obesity, or want to lose weight, they obviously can be more aware of how they eat, how much they.

So say for example, when you place your hands on your stomach, which I usually recommend to everyone, and then ask your stomach how much you want to eat now; the amount that you want to eat today may be different from yesterday.

So you always ask your body each and every time so that you can be having friendly attitude to your body. So you start not hating your body even if you think that you're chubby. But you start having this friendly relationship with your body and as well as your food, a friendly relationship with your food.

So rebuild that relationship with food, with your body, and as a result, with your life as well. That's physical benefit. Mental benefit as well: joy, calmness, playfulness, and feeling connection—living in connectivity will give you ultimate calmness, deep calmness, but with joy. So that's, I think some of the benefits.

Nick: Well, that's really interesting about the conversation with your tummy. Because I think in Japan, Japanese people see the gut as a second brain of the body. So it's like two brains having a conversation. That's a very non-threatening way to think, ‘Oh, What is my stomach really feeling?’ And I’ll say, ‘Oh, well, I'm a little bit hungry, but I don't need that much.’ And maybe start being healthy.

Because I guess emotional eating is a big problem: we get stressed, so we grab something, and that's usually something full of sugar or a comfort food, which might not be healthy. So this slower, more gentle conversation with your guts, or your tummy sounds really positive.

Momoe: Yes. So you can choose, before doing this emotional eating. And when you start having conversation with your second brain, you can open up, you can wake up your body wisdom, your body intelligence, and you are able to unleash your unlimited potential by waking up your body intelligence.

Because if you live with your brain only, or if you live with your mind only, then it is so limited. But if you make alignment of your body, mind, soul, and spirit, you can unleash your full potential and you can live so energetically, which happened to me. I was happy before, but I feel like this alignment makes me so energetic, and a lot of my clients experience something similar.

How Can People Practice Zen eating?

For those who would like to experience mindful eating, Momoe outlines three practical steps for practicing Zen eating.

Truly immersing yourself in each meal

Nick: Okay, well, let's find out how. So how can we practice Zen eating?

Momoe: I would like to offer everyone by introducing three steps of practicing then eating if it sounds something doable, easy to do. First, I invite you to turn off your mobile at your dining table. Or keep your mobile in a different room so that you don't have to put your effort to constantly focus on your eating, you automatically can focus.

And second step is put your hands together, palms together before and after eating. So take one moment, take a pause. And you may also want to say itadakimasu, which means ‘I humbly receive’ before eating, and gochisosama deshita, *‘*thank you for the food and everyone involved.’ So this prayer helps you, otherwise you can do one breathing, deep breathing, before eating and after eating.

And if you are having a ‘monkey mind’ and you want to start eating immediately, then you can start doing this hand together after eating. So it might be easier for you to apply if you have a very busy life. So after eating, hands together after finishing your meal.

And the third point is a bit intermediate, I recommend you to smell before drinking your tea, before eating your meal, your snack or sweet, or whatever, smelling is really powerful. By smelling, you can open up your body, and once your body open up, it will guide you to this sense of oneness, connectivity, you can open up by smelling a cup of tea, you can open up your five senses and you remember that you have body and that the sensation of body open up your body wisdom.

So reminding yourself that you have body is the first step. So these three steps, how do they sound?

Nick: I think it's wonderful. And I think one of the most powerful lessons I learned from living in Japan, I think, was kimari monku, these set expressions and cultural practices. So yeah, they're just little gestures, but they're very meaningful.

So saying itadakimasu and gochisosama deshita before and after a meal, if you do it properly and with feeling, it does make a difference. It’s like it increases your well-being because you're being grateful for what you're receiving. And then you're acknowledging again, I'm grateful for what I've just eaten. So a very powerful concept.

Zen Eating Helps Calm a Busy Life

Nowadays, many people eat poorly because they feel stressed or anxious. Momoe suggests that Zen eating could be a solution and offers practical steps for integrating it into daily life.

Build a better relationship with yourself through Zen eating

Nick: So it sounds like this Zen eating is a solution to a lot of our problems where we're eating on the go, we are very compulsive, and then we don't chew properly. And then because we don't chew properly, we don't even taste the food properly, and then we probably over eat.

So do you think Zen eating is a solution to these bad habits or this fast lifestyle we live today?

Momoe: Pretty much so, yes. And I'd like to break down into three steps again. So first, if you realize, if you notice that you do binge eating, or you have anxiety, that's the first step. And I'd like to encourage you to be aware—acknowledge, and embrace the fact that you could pay attention to that realization.

Instead of blaming yourself, having anxiety is not something that you blame yourself. But be aware, and embrace that fact. The second step is take a pause and to listen to your body, your body is amazing, your body has intelligence, your body has wisdom. So ask your body what your body needs now. And so that you can connect with your internal wisdom.

And trust your body a little more, so that your internal wisdom will guide you to the place that you need to be. And third step is be playful and be curious. Whatever you experience, some negative feelings as well, negative emotions as well, that's something that you can be curious with—what is happening inside of me?

And you can be playful later on, maybe having those difficult moment. So, I think these three steps can build up this relationship with yourself and other surrounding environment by practicing Zen eating. So you can apply it in this way in your life as well. As a result, I think internal transformation may change your choice and behaviors. Yes, it will be a gradual shift, but yet a radical shift.

Kounai Choumi (Cooking in the Mouth)

In Japan, they have the concept of kounai choumi (cooking in the mouth), where you put rice along with other dishes in your mouth altogether, resulting in subtle changes in flavors. For Momoe, this subtlety is a key factor in understanding Japanese culture.

Japanese people enjoy subtle change

Nick: I have an interesting question, and I learned this from Ken Mogi, and it's probably related to what we're discussing. And it was something I'd never heard before, despite living in Japan for so long, like 10 years. So he introduced me to this concept *kounai choumi ‘*cooking in the mouth.’

This is where you add rice to your mouth, keep the rice in your mouth, and then you add something else, could be a pickle or a piece of fish or vegetable. And then you chew it all together, and mix it up in your mouth. And it's like you're creating a new dish in your mouth. So do you practice this with Zen eating?

Momoe: Interesting to hear about it. I like him. Well, I read about him once.

Nick: He's amazing.

Momoe: Yeah, he’s amazing. And yes, so my shortest answer is that Japanese people like change to sense subtle change. So by doing kounai choumi, me cooking in your mouth, by doing this, you can experience different tastes each and every bite.

I think that's why we invented this way of eating. So I just came back from India last week, and you you may know that they use banana leaf to eat food. And I saw them mixing everything—soup, rice, pickles, boiled vegetables, everything mixed before they start eating.

And part of me enjoyed a new culture of eating by mixing everything. And part of me said like, wow, if you mix them up, every single bite will taste really similar. So that's something that I found Japanese-ness, like we enjoy subtle change.

And this subtleness is a key point, a key factor to understand Japanese culture. You may think rice is tasteless, or rice is to bland to eat only, but I strongly believe that rice is tasteful. So the subtle change, subtle flavor, subtle aroma, that awareness of subtleness is the reason that we enjoy cooking in your mouth.

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