Cultural Reflections: Saori Okada on Japanese Identity

Saori Okada

Saori Okada delves into the true essence of being Japanese, challenging Western interpretations of Japanese culture in episode 35 of the Ikigai Podcast.

Saori is the founder and managing director of Mogami 最上 Ltd., a Japanese wellness company headquartered in London, UK; the mission of Mogami is to empower and liberate individuals to take back control of their wellness. 


*Watch the full playlist above.

Who Are You?

What does it feel like to be able to experience the best of both Japanese and Western cultures? Saori shares her realizations upon having been able to live and experience both cultures, and how it helped her to embrace more her being Japanese.

Strong Japanese roots

Nick: So this goes into our next point really about you and your sense of self: being someone who's lived and grown up into cultures.

You've told me that when you're in Japan or when you're with Japanese people, your friends are often surprised that you freely speak your mind and that you'll ask for their opinion. I guess it’s behavior that's not typical of Japanese. 

But you seem to have found this balance between Easter or Japanese and Western culture that I suspect gives you a strong sense of freedom.

So is that what it feels like? That you do have this best of both cultures experience? And you're more of a whole person? Is that how you feel?

Saori: Yes, I think this is like a million-dollar question. You know, I think about like, who are you? I think if you asked me five years ago, I definitely had a different answer than how I feel now.

To your point about how growing up, a lot of people in Japan would be like, “Oh, you're not really Japanese,” “Sometimes you don't seem like Japanese.” And they mean that as a compliment, genuinely. 

Then in the West, I think they're like, “Oh, you're so organized,” “You're so thoughtful.” Those kinds of things, and it used to really trouble me, I think, you know, when you're younger in your 20s, you're trying to figure out, okay, do I fit? Where do I fit in if both cultures are telling me that I'm not like one or the other? 

But I think as I've gotten older, I've really worked on figuring out who I am and have done a lot of reflection. And at this point, today, if you asked me, like, who am I? Or like, what is it that gives me more freedom, I identify myself as Japanese. And I think I'm proud of that.

I think my base and foundation is that I am Japanese, and I appreciate the culture, if anything, I think it is more the Western influence and the Western experience that have given me the tools to understand how to fully embrace what it means to be Japanese. In my opinion, Japanese is not where you don't think about yourselves. 

Or I think that's where people are suffering right now, because they've taken collectivism to an extreme, and they've just forgotten that collectivism at the core includes thinking about what you want to do as well for the betterment of everyone.

Finding Meaning in a Hard Life

For some Japanese people, daily living is difficult, some have to work excessively to make ends meet -- it is something that even other cultures can relate to. Is having ikigai a solution for these tough times? Saori discusses how having ikigai can be beneficial when we are faced with difficult situations.

Ikigai can provide guidance during life's challenges

Nick: It's funny, this podcast is meant to be about ikigai. But I do explore all these other areas. One thing I do think is important, is that for a lot of Japanese life is hard, especially in big cities and where maybe people are isolated from family and they take on these ambitious roles or jobs, and it doesn't turn out to be what they hope.

So the question I'm really asking is, for many Japanese is daily living hard?

Saori: You know, I think that's such a nuanced question, and I also think it's important. I really appreciate the fact that we talk about these topics, because I sometimes think, of course, the health metrics of Japan are very strong, they're considered the longevity nation of the world: obesity rates compared to other countries is slow, and they live a long lifespan, which I think is fantastic. 

At the same time, I think, to your earlier point about how things have been changing, the concept of overworked, while even with the pay -- salary is not increasing significantly, like, that's a metric that is important.

And I think daily living is getting harder, and a stat that I always preference, like the percentages of people that both parents, both husband and wife have to work to make ends meet for the child has continuously increased.

That is a metric that is important. So that because it's just getting harder to live in Japan.

Nick: It's interesting, because all my good Japanese friends, they're entrepreneurial. So I really don't have a Japanese friend who works at an office or has some sort of high-pressure role.

I remember seeing some aspects of what it means to be, perhaps a salaryman, and seeing crowded trains and drunk men, in almost every night going home.

I actually remember a campaign quite a while ago, and it was trying to highlights fathers who were working excessively, and not spending enough time with their children.

Can't remember exactly, but it was something like, just being a father doesn't make you a dad, that kind of nuance -- you're just a biological father, but you're not at home. 

And it has this, it was like a show and tell with parents. So you had these fathers come and say, he knows he loves baseball, and he loves collecting cards, and he plays Little League, and then you have this father, he says, "my son he likes..." so he doesn't know what he likes, and he's sort of mumbling and he has no idea. So it was quite a powerful commercial. 

So there seems to be and this is more than 10 years ago. So there is this awareness, but it just doesn't seem to be enough solutions. I don't think this is a solution for the Japanese.

Because, as we discover, ikigai is not really a special word in the context of Japanese culture yet. So it's not like ikigai is the solution to all these problems in Japan. But I would imagine having a strong sense of ikigai would help. 

So yeah, to some degree, would ikigai be an answer for this hard lifestyle?

Saori: Yeah, I actually do think so to a certain degree, because I think the concept of ikigai, which I'm sure you've articulated in your previous episodes, but in many ways is your reason for being is how I would translate it because it's a concept and it's really more of an appreciation. 

So for me, if we answer: is the answer ikigai to living a hard life? In many ways it can be: one, it means that your life is worth living, which is really important. I don't think it's a given that most people think that.

And two, I think, if we understand that ikigai is not something we think about, but we more know, which I know we're going to talk about a little bit later. 

But I think that knowing is so important because the knowing comes more from our spiritual, our heart, our spirit, soul.

And that could help us really check in with ourselves with our inner selves, which is going to be helpful because I think Japanese people are suffering because they haven't been given the opportunity to think about themselves.

Nick: Yeah, that's it. That's the theme you've touched on a few times with me and we'll look at that later. I guess one thing we can say, is having a hard life. I mean, even having a challenging life can mean you still have ikigai. An easy life won't result in a lot of ikigai. 

So from our life challenges, we make meaning of them, then we get a sense of what it means to fight for something or to care about something or our challenges can be very meaningful and we discover who we are so perhaps in a hard life, If we're lucky, we do find a sense that life is worth living if we can get through them.

Finding Balance in an Unbalanced World

How do we find balance in an unbalanced world? Saori explores this question and talk about the term hodo-hodo ni (just do enough): knowing when to know when your cup is full.

Knowing when your cup is full

Nick: So another interesting point you raised when we were talking is a question: how do you find balance in an unbalanced world? And I think you've got a few things to share in relation to this.

Saori: Yes, back to our earlier point of how Japanese have such beautiful words that encapsulate what it means. I was thinking about this question, I was thinking of this word called hodo-hodo ni, and every day, people use this term, it's more like, you know, just hodo-hodo ni or everything you do just hodo-hodo ni.

Nick: Is it little by little?

Saori: Hodo-hodo ni means just do enough. That's really kind of what it means of being like, you don't go to extremes. And it's really about knowing when to know when your cup is full. And that is how I would answer this question. Because I think we were exploring how in Japan, people do live a hard life, there's no denying that. 

I think that it is a result of the cultural practices that started off with the beautiful intention of working hard and having systems in place of doing things properly of how thinking for other people, they have the best intentions, but it's not hodo-hodo ni, it's more to the extreme. 

And then the West, we could say perhaps, that they've taken individualism too far. I think you were saying that in the coaching world, even it's more about what have I done? What have I done? What have I done? And that's important, of course, you know, we must think about ourselves, but it's not at the expense of the collective. 

So I think you could find balance by first taking a moment to pause and saying, “Okay, where am I in this range?” Then figuring out how you could be more hodo-hodo ni, because I think that's really the wisdom of not being in any extreme.

Ikigai is Not a Venn Diagram

The Japanese concept of ikigai is gaining attention in the West, where they define it as a framework of something that you love, something that you're good at, something that the world needs, and something that you get paid for. But if we would ask a Japanese person, is that how they would define ikigai? Saori shares her thoughts the first time she encountered the Ikigai Venn Diagram, stating that ikigai is more than that of the Western interpretation of it.

The Venn diagram is a limiting framework

Nick: That's something that's not really talked about in the West. And as you found out ikigai is this romanticized kind of notion that it's from Okinawa, and it's about living a long life. There's also a Venn diagram involved.

So let's talk about your experience of learning about the West's fascination with ikigai. How did that come about? I think you mentioned that a friend mentioned it to you first, in the States?

Saori: Yes, it was very serendipitous, in many ways, because it was probably at the beginning of 2020, or probably in the summer at my job, I was in the woman's board, and we were doing a presentation about professional development; we had a speaker come on, and they were sharing about some frameworks that they found helpful. 

She started with this ikigai Venn diagram, and I remember freezing, I was just so shocked, to be honest. Because I was so surprised that I saw this concept. I know I shared last time, but it was more of such pain in my soul.

I think that's the best way I could describe it. Such sadness from my heart, because ikigai is such a beautiful concept, and it's so nuanced. It's not something that could be put on paper and like, no, a formula, unfortunately. So I think it was, that was the first time I saw it and was heartbroken.

Then the second time was the same, maybe like one day later, my best friend in London was doing a purpose program that was well regarded in the UK. And she reached out to me and said, "Oh, I didn't know Japan had this framework, this Venn diagram." 

And again, I was very sad. I think at this point, I was going through the grieving stages. So I think I turned to anger more, I was enraged, I was enraged why are they taking such a beautiful concept and putting it like this?

And then last, but not least, I was listening to one of my podcasts, and they were talking about this ikigai Venn diagram. I think it was one of those, like, professional development podcasts that I like.

And yeah, I think it was like a researcher referencing this Venn diagram, and that was very much the icing on the cake, where I kept seeing it, which, ultimately, you know, after I grieve, I came to appreciation where I think it's beautiful that the West is so interested in this concept. 

Because to me, that just shows us that they really are looking for a different way of wanting to be and live a life, which is wonderful. But I just think that the Venn diagram is a limiting framework. And if you really want to understand what ikigai is, then it's unfortunately not been there.

For the full podcast conversation, go to: What does it mean to be Japanese?

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